Norah Jones

[Hot Ptah]

Something about Wynton, and Norah, and Kenny G, and Phil Woods, and Oscar Peterson, that just automatically brings out negativity on online discussion boards. There's material for one or more PhD theses in this phenomenon.

[Shawn]

Something about Wynton, and Norah, and Kenny G, and Phil Woods, and Oscar Peterson, that just automatically brings out negativity on online discussion boards. There's material for one or more PhD theses in this phenomenon.

You forget Keith Jarrett and his mumbling.

[clifford_thornton]

I still don't get the problem with Phil Woods. His fifties sessions are spot on and the European Rhythm Machine isn't slouchy either. No, he's not Bird or Schildkraut, but who other than Bird or Schildkraut is?

[danasgoodstuff]

I think the common denominator (detinator?) in all these hot-button artists is the shtick (sp?) some hear that others don't...

[Scott Dolan]

Something about Wynton, and Norah, and Kenny G, and Phil Woods, and Oscar Peterson, that just automatically brings out negativity on online discussion boards. There's material for one or more PhD theses in this phenomenon.

You forget Keith Jarrett and his mumbling.

If they were only mumbles it wouldn't be a hot button topic.

I love Keith, and have a healthy collection of his trio, but I do at least understand those annoyed by the vocal embellishments.

I think the common denominator (detinator?) in all these hot-button artists is the shtick (sp?) some hear that others don't...

Yeah.

Like that Eric Dolphy schtick to play as many notes as he could as quickly as he could.

[danasgoodstuff]

Something about Wynton, and Norah, and Kenny G, and Phil Woods, and Oscar Peterson, that just automatically brings out negativity on online discussion boards. There's material for one or more PhD theses in this phenomenon.

You forget Keith Jarrett and his mumbling.

If they were only mumbles it wouldn't be a hot button topic.

I love Keith, and have a healthy collection of his trio, but I do at least understand those annoyed by the vocal embellishments.

I think the common denominator (detinator?) in all these hot-button artists is the shtick (sp?) some hear that others don't...

Yeah.

Like that Eric Dolphy schtick to play as many notes as he could as quickly as he could.

I'm afraid I don't follow your logic here - someone else was wrong about something else therefore I'm wrong about this? Someone else was wrong...therefore be careful about sweeping pronouncements, that I get. Dolphy didn't play near as many notes per minute or per bar as Parker, but he did like big intervals and kinda herky jerky phrasing that emphasized them, I kinda like that but others could legitimately not. Something 'bout Nora just strikes me in a very gut-level way as wrong, but then there are very few 21st century singers I have any use for at all.

[Scott Dolan]

Ah, I get you now. If you like it, it's a style. If you don't it's a schtick.

Eh, that's human nature, I suppose. Still doesn't make it right.

[clifford_thornton]

this thread is a bummer

[sonnymax]

In trying to understand Allen's behavior in this thread, I think that looking for some hidden meaning in Norah Jones is missing the point.

...I have worked too hard for too long to be ridiculed and snidely dismissed...

Sadly, I think this statement probably relates to far too many of Allen's experiences as a musician. No one can deny that he is a very talented artist and a notable musicologist. What kind of rewards has he received for all of his efforts? What must it be like to repeatedly see others who are arguably less talented and less devoted to their craft reap the benefits of large-scale marketing and an audience that doesn't demand enough from the music they typically enjoy? Those of us working in education, healthcare, social services and other underpaid and unappreciated fields surely have had similar ("What the fuck?!") moments like this.

In the past, I've been openly critical of Allen's bashing of a few popular artists. Although I don't agree or approve, I'm trying to be more understanding and appreciative of artists like him who strive to create and share something of value, something that can elevate and enhance our experience in life. Yes, Allen can be a smart ass at times and a pain-in-the-ass at other times, and I don't believe in necessarily giving artists a "free pass" regarding their personal behavior. Instead, I'm suggesting that one might want to pause, reflect, and try to empathize before drawing any conclusions.

[7/4]

a bitter old man with a bad attitude.

[clifford_thornton]

I've been lucky to hang out with Allen frequently. Sure, there is bitterness sometimes but it's not unreasonable given the situation and he's really a kind and generous guy (not to mention great musician-composer). I still can't understand caring about Norah Jones one way or the other, but regardless, it's too bad that this thread was the straw that broke the camel's back.

[danasgoodstuff]

In trying to understand Allen's behavior in this thread, I think that looking for some hidden meaning in Norah Jones is missing the point.

...I have worked too hard for too long to be ridiculed and snidely dismissed...

Sadly, I think this statement probably relates to far too many of Allen's experiences as a musician. No one can deny that he is a very talented artist and a notable musicologist. What kind of rewards has he received for all of his efforts? What must it be like to repeatedly see others who are arguably less talented and less devoted to their craft reap the benefits of large-scale marketing and an audience that doesn't demand enough from the music they typically enjoy? Those of us working in education, healthcare, social services and other underpaid and unappreciated fields surely have had similar ("What the fuck?!") moments like this.

In the past, I've been openly critical of Allen's bashing of a few popular artists. Although I don't agree or approve, I'm trying to be more understanding and appreciative of artists like him who strive to create and share something of value, something that can elevate and enhance our experience in life. Yes, Allen can be a smart ass at times and a pain-in-the-ass at other times, and I don't believe in necessarily giving artists a "free pass" regarding their personal behavior. Instead, I'm suggesting that one might want to pause, reflect, and try to empathize before drawing any conclusions.

Well said.

Ah, I get you now. If you like it, it's a style. If you don't it's a schtick.

Eh, that's human nature, I suppose. Still doesn't make it right.

No, I assume that there is a difference, however poorly I might explain it.

[7/4]

I've been lucky to hang out with Allen frequently. Sure, there is bitterness sometimes but it's not unreasonable given the situation and he's really a kind and generous guy (not to mention great musician-composer). I still can't understand caring about Norah Jones one way or the other, but regardless, it's too bad that this thread was the straw that broke the camel's back.

It's probably not. He never goes away.

I had to block him on Facebook a few years ago, because he was harassing me online.

Edited August 4, 2014 by 7/4

[Scott Dolan]

How do we deduce that an artist is less devoted to their craft?

[7/4]

How do we deduce that an artist is less devoted to their craft?

Psychic powers.

[Scott Dolan]

How do we deduce that an artist is less devoted to their craft?

Psychic powers.

That's pretty much the only option, right?

[xybert]

All i'll say is that i'll miss Allen's posts if he is indeed gone for good. On a selfish level i'll miss the extremely generous deals that he offered to board members when he had a new release.

[Hot Ptah]

To me, Allen is a brilliant composer and musician, and a thoughtful, insightful poster on this board. I hope he comes back.

[Steve Reynolds]

To me, Allen is a brilliant composer and musician, and a thoughtful, insightful poster on this board. I hope he comes back.

Agreed. Plus I fervently agree with him on this issue.

[king ubu]

Same here. This thread sucks. I thinks points were made rather clearly, both by Allen and Jim. Would be okay, I guess, to have some sort of grown-up discussion, but that seems impossible - and at that, futile, too.

[Big Beat Steve]

Same here too.

Anybody is free to listen to and enjoy whatever MOR singalonger they prefer but hey, not all that has a jazz label attached to it strictly for marketing purposes really IS jazz. Nor do they have to be jazz to be listenable to in their own right by those who like to listen to them, particularly because it would speak rather poorly for any artist AND their audience if they could stand on their own feet only on the strength of a "jazz" tag. But THAT is a debate that has been led ages ago, isn't it?

[Scott Dolan]

Same here. This thread sucks. I thinks points were made rather clearly, both by Allen and Jim. Would be okay, I guess, to have some sort of grown-up discussion, but that seems impossible - and at that, futile, too.

Right, but whose at fault in that regard?

Nobody said anything that should have forced a rational human being to say fuck it.

I certainly understand where he's coming from, but it is misplaced and condescending for reasons that have already been expounded on.

As a fan of the genre, I do not condone any language that turns Jazz into some kind of exclusive club.

I'll be the first to admit that I have heard much of Allen's stuff online, and thinks his shit don't stink. Be that as it may, I also don't think Norah Jones' shit is shit.

Either way, Allen is reading all of this, and probably feeling a little better about himself right about now. And if he's anything like me when I would "voluntarily ban" myself from message boards, is probably feeling a little silly or embarrassed. Hey, I'm man enough to admit it. Been there far more times than I care to remember, as many of you know.

If he's truly gone for good, it's his loss as much as it is ours.

[l p]

Just saw LOVE ACTUALLY.

Norah Jones got a song of hers in another movie. (Turn Me On)

Doesn't that make 4?

i'll steer this thread back on topic, which is that the LOVE ACTUALLY is one of the worst british films of the past decade.

[Hot Ptah]

I agree with you about LOVE ACTUALLY. I found myself cringing often as I watched it.

[jazzbo]

I hope Allen comes back. I can sort of understand his upset, but it's not worth an exit stage left.