I shoplifted at Border's today

[Jim R]

Yeah, I would stop. It's easier. Sets a better example for my kid, too, if I'm shopping with him. I agree with everything Dan said (did you ever think you'd hear that?!).

Plus, once as I was leaving Macy's in a crowd, the alarm beeped wildly but no security guard was there to ask anyone to stop. Figured it wasn't me. Got home and found that the pants I'd bought (that my son needed to wear to family event IMMEDIATELY) had an extra hidden tag. One of those big plastic disks that you can't take off yourself without ruining the garment! The clerk had already removed TWO at checkout, so it wasn't HER fault that someone had committed security overload on this item! (Stanley Kowalski unpacking Blanche's bags in Streetcar: "What have we here -- a solid gold dress, I believe!")

Anyway, it would have saved me a round-trip-and-a-half if a security guard HAD stopped me!

Been there and done that.

I've seen that other scenario many times, too (where the machine beeps its ass off, and no security or store employee is anywhere in sight... and if they are, they act like everybody should know they're just supposed to ignore the stupid machine). Ludicrous.

[Dan Gould]

Similarly, I bought a running suit a few months back, and when the weather turned cooler and I got out the jacket part, I discovered that the clerk had left the theft device inside that piece. By this time, I've tossed the receipt, so what am I to do?

Well, I brought it back to Sears, and went straight to the nearest checkout counter from the entrance (a bit aways from the men's department, but I figure I don't want to be seen to be walking around with this loose jacket before I go up to the counter).

I'm sure it was natural for them to wonder whether I was conning them, but fortunately they didn't give me too much of a hard time. I was absolutely prepared to go into full "it was the clerk's fault, now you get this freaking thing off" pitch a fit til I get what I want mode, but that wasn't necessary.

And I did have an ace in the hole-as I walked in, I saw the security monitor that showed the exit, so I figured I could always get them to rewind the tape and see that I walked in with the jacket.

But there's a definite moral to this story-check yourself to make sure all tags are off any clothing purchase!

[7/4]

Similarly, I bought a running suit a few months back, and when the weather turned cooler and I got out the jacket part, I discovered that the clerk had left the theft device inside that piece. By this time, I've tossed the receipt, so what am I to do?

Well, I brought it back to Sears, and went straight to the nearest checkout counter from the entrance (a bit aways from the men's department, but I figure I don't want to be seen to be walking around with this loose jacket before I go up to the counter).

I'm sure it was natural for them to wonder whether I was conning them, but fortunately they didn't give me too much of a hard time. I was absolutely prepared to go into full "it was the clerk's fault, now you get this freaking thing off" pitch a fit til I get what I want mode, but that wasn't necessary.

And I did have an ace in the hole-as I walked in, I saw the security monitor that showed the exit, so I figured I could always get them to rewind the tape and see that I walked in with the jacket.

But there's a definite moral to this story-check yourself to make sure all tags are off any clothing purchase!

A likely story...

[Jim R]

At a few of the local chain and independent stores where I buy CD's, the security system is effectively bypassed (I guess they know the technology doesn't work properly and will only cause them headaches if employed fully). The cashier hands the customer the merchandise AFTER the customer has walked through the detector device. Seems to work very well, too. Is there some good reason why Borders, B&N, Tower, etc, don't do this?

I probably should have added that the security device is located directly adjacent to the register(s) in these stores, so it only takes a moment for the cashiers to do this.

Anybody in (or formerly in) retail have any thoughts on that?

[Dan Gould]

Similarly, I bought a running suit a few months back, and when the weather turned cooler and I got out the jacket part, I discovered that the clerk had left the theft device inside that piece.  By this time, I've tossed the receipt, so what am I to do?

Well, I brought it back to Sears, and went straight to the nearest checkout counter from the entrance (a bit aways from the men's department, but I figure I don't want to be seen to be walking around with this loose jacket before I go up to the counter).

I'm sure it was natural for them to wonder whether I was conning them, but fortunately they didn't give me too much of a hard time.  I was absolutely prepared to go into full "it was the clerk's fault, now you get this freaking thing off" pitch a fit til I get what I want mode, but that wasn't necessary.

And I did have an ace in the hole-as I walked in, I saw the security monitor that showed the exit, so I figured I could always get them to rewind the tape and see that I walked in with the jacket.

But there's a definite moral to this story-check yourself to make sure all tags are off any clothing purchase!

A likely story...

Business seemed way off at the Borders I went to today; how's your business doing these days, 7/4? Still sucking wind? That's too bad; who will you blame if Bush gets canned in November?

[Jazzmoose]

Jim, that's the way Streetlight in San Jose is set up, and it's perfect. No stress for the customers, no false positives...it's perfect. Of course, it works better for a place that has two registers than one that has thirty like our store.

And, Chris...you are correct. I guess that's what gets my goat with these things is that they work so poorly. That and knowing how easy they are for a determined shoplifter to defeat. I could go into any store and walk out with any number of CDs without setting off those stupid things. It's a joke. I applaud those of you who can shrug your shoulders and just chalk it up as another inconvenience of modern life, but I really think something should be done about it. There's got to be a better way...

[garthsj]

Well, I'm working in retail now, and at one time worked as security for retail. (As you might guess, nothing irritated me at the time like the term "rent-a-cop". We ain't cops, we have no interest in being cops...but that's another story.) Do you have to stop? No. I usually do, but no, you don't have to. Sometimes I don't, and if I had gone through this as you did, the only thing I would have done differently, knowing what I know, is this: the minute that son of a bitch yelled out "Did you purchase that stuff?" like that, accusing me of theft in public, I would have spun around on my heels and demanded to see his boss. Not the store manager, the head of security, or if he was not on the premises, the store manager. Unless Borders is a lot different than Target, that was a no-no, and in any case was totally uncalled for.

A quick story (which could, and has been, spun out in greater detail, believe me..). I was staying at the Fountainbleu Hotel in Miami .. there for an academic conference. I planned things out so that I gave my paper the first day, and then had four days in the sun on the beach in front of the hotel. On my first morning on the beach I rented a chaise and cushion .... At one point, I went to the bathroom, and when I returned I decided to move my chair further up the beach. No sooner had I settled in with my earphones planted on my head digging the MJQ, than a beachboy accompanying a couple of guests walked past me, and stopped to "chastise" me in front of them for "stealing" someone's chair! I remained calm, tried to explain, but he kept saying "I saw what you did" kinda things. When he left I went to his boss at the hut where I had rented my chair originally, and told what had happened. He stood there with his mouth open, and I went back to my chair. About 20 minutes later I opened my eyes to discover two guys in suits and expensive shoes standing on the beach looking down at me. I wondered if I was going to disappear into the swamps, but it was the hotel manager and his assistant. Apparently something I had said to the chair boss made them think that I was about to sue their asses off! After profuse apologies, practically grovelling, they told me that in order to make it up to me they were moving me to a suite, offered me the use of pool cabana for my stay, and comped my accommodation and breakfasts (I shoulda held out for ALL meals) .... I reluctantly accepted, but was careful NOT to promise not to sue ... just to keep them on their toes. It was a great vacation. Since then I have been trying to figure out how to do that again...

I was never sure what happened to the beachboy, but I did request that he NOT be fired ...

[wesbed]

I'm glad I was able to bring up a subject that got Dan Gould to agree with maren and Alexander. See the positive energy I possess? I only wish I'd had the same effect on the Border's personnel.

Anyway, all good opinions in this thread. I appreciate every one of them (yeah, believe it). My intention, while at the Border's store, was not to be accused nor to accuse of anything. I've dropped a LOT of money at Border's and will continue to do so.

I still believe, however, that when I'm shopping in a retail store. I'm paying the store for a service. I'll not be bullied, nor accused, nor paraded, nor herded (like a sheep) back into the store with MY merchandise. I've witnessed the Border's rig-a-ma-roll on occasion. "Ok, sir. Now, please, give me the merchandise. Ok, now walk back through the scanner. Ok, sir, now, walk through the scanner again. Ok, now, let me go and re-scan your merchandise. Ok, sir, now, thank you for shopping at Border's." I saw a customer, one time, who kept beeping because he'd purchased a baseball cap from another store in the mall. Back and forth and back and forth with the poor Border's clerk, till the customer removed his baseball cap and discovered an active transmitter. The odd thing, I heard the customer saying, was that the cap didn't beep on the way in to the Border's store.

If the retail store desires that I walk through a scanner, while passing the merchandise around the scanner, BEFORE I make my purchase... okay. At this point, the merchandise is not yet mine. This is sort of what they do at Blockbuster Video. AFTER I've traded my money, however, and the merchandise becomes MINE, it's really not the business of the store's staff as to what I do with my privately-held goods. Whether they can see the goods or not, whether they can touch the goods or not, or whether I'll return to the store or not.

I do understand that retail stores lose much revenue due to shrinkage. I know, too, that the amount of shrinkage is priced right back into the product. Unfortunately, I also know that all of us who buy in retail stores (which is most everybody) must pay the higher price to compensate for those who don't pay.

I'm stating my opinions here. I'm ignorant as to what the law says. In the end, if we are to live in a civilization, we must, in general, obey the law. Yes, it does seem reasonable, and not much more difficult, to return to the store and let the store's staff do what is required by the store's policy. On the other hand, I'll admit to having a problem with authority in certain situations. I'm an honest person who attempts to live within the law and attempts to treat others with a degree of respect. Given the same situation again, I'll behave in the exact same manner, and continue walking out the door. Errr... unless I discover a 'law' that says otherwise.

JSngry, I know what you mean. I don't shop at Sam's Club or Costco. I'm not about to pay to have ACCESS to a retail store, only to be inspected on my way out of the store. As a customer, I'll take my money elsewhere. I can walk into a Target, Home Depot, Sears, and my local grocer for free.

By the way, the Hank Mobley (The Flip) and the Charlie Rouse (Bossa Nova Bacchanal) are MUCH better than what I expected.

Edited May 1, 2004 by wesbed

[7/4]

Similarly, I bought a running suit a few months back, and when the weather turned cooler and I got out the jacket part, I discovered that the clerk had left the theft device inside that piece.  By this time, I've tossed the receipt, so what am I to do?

Well, I brought it back to Sears, and went straight to the nearest checkout counter from the entrance (a bit aways from the men's department, but I figure I don't want to be seen to be walking around with this loose jacket before I go up to the counter).

I'm sure it was natural for them to wonder whether I was conning them, but fortunately they didn't give me too much of a hard time.  I was absolutely prepared to go into full "it was the clerk's fault, now you get this freaking thing off" pitch a fit til I get what I want mode, but that wasn't necessary.

And I did have an ace in the hole-as I walked in, I saw the security monitor that showed the exit, so I figured I could always get them to rewind the tape and see that I walked in with the jacket.

But there's a definite moral to this story-check yourself to make sure all tags are off any clothing purchase!

A likely story...

Business seemed way off at the Borders I went to today; how's your business doing these days, 7/4? Still sucking wind? That's too bad; who will you blame if Bush gets canned in November?

I thought this is a non-political forum?

Some folks, I don't know....

[Alexander]

Shortly before I left B&N, I was told in no uncertain terms that either I brought the shrink situation in the music department under control *by myself* (meaning:  with no help from the company, and without spending any money on additional security equipment) or I would lose my job.  So there's considerable pressure on employees to stop theft.

I don't quite understand this. If a person peruses the bins and decides to purchase something, he/she then walks out of the music dept. with the item and proceeds to make their way toward the battery of cash registers often located in another part of the store (at least down this way, I think??). Since the music dept. staff clearly can't stroll arm-in-arm the 100 feet or so to the cash register with every person who exits the music dept. with a Freddie Fender cd, what exactly would the overlords expect the music dept. staff to do? Ditto for Borders where the cash registers (at the Pentagon City store) and music dept are located at opposite ends of the store -- about 150-200 feet as the crow flies (over the maze of book shelves).

My store had two registers in the music department and a checkpoint device at the music department entrance. Customers were not allowed to purchase music on the bookfloor, and if they insisted, then we WOULD walk them up to the front register and wait until they were checked out.

The big problem we had was with people defeating the checkpoint system by cutting the checkpoint tags off of the CDs with a razor blade. We'd find the tags all over the department, hidden behind things and inside the listening stations. The main problem was that we had one or two employees back there watching over a dozen or more customers, it was very easy to distract us.

[Jazzmoose]

I thought this is a non-political forum?

Withdrawal symptoms...

[7/4]

I thought this is a non-political forum? 

Withdrawal symptoms...

Edited May 1, 2004 by 7/4

[wesbed]

Hey. Why did the president's name get added to this discussion?

Edited May 1, 2004 by wesbed

[AfricaBrass]

I still believe, however, that when I'm shopping in a retail store. I'm paying them for a service. I'll not be bullied, nor accused, nor herded (like a sheep) back into the store with MY merchandise. I've witnessed the Border's rig-a-ma-roll on occasion. "Ok, sir. Now, please, give me the merchandise. Ok, now walk back through the scanner. Ok, sir, now, walk through the scanner again. Ok, now, let me go and re-scan your merchandise. Ok, sir, now, thank you for shopping at Border's."

I think it only would be fair if you do get beeped on your way out of the store (and you have purchased your items), that the store would give you a store credit for 40% of what you purchased.

Since they have no problems tretaing you like a criminal, they should have no problem compensating you for your public embarassment.

If this was the case, maybe the management of these stores would make sure their equipment is working properly in the first place. We know they don't care about the customers, but they do care about profits.

[RainyDay]

I'm glad I was able to bring up a subject that got Dan Gould to agree with Maren and Alexander. See the positive energy I possess? I only wish I'd had the same effect on the Border's personnel.

Anyway, all good opinions in this thread. I appreciate every one of them (yeah, believe it). My intention, while at Border's the store, was not to be accused nor to accuse of anything. I've dropped a LOT of money at Border's and will continue to do so.

I still believe, however, that when I'm shopping in a retail store. I'm paying them for a service. I'll not be bullied, nor accused, nor herded (like a sheep) back into the store with MY merchandise. I've witnessed the Border's rig-a-ma-roll on occasion. "Ok, sir. Now, please, give me the merchandise. Ok, now walk back through the scanner. Ok, sir, now, walk through the scanner again. Ok, now, let me go and re-scan your merchandise. Ok, sir, now, thank you for shopping at Border's." I saw a customer, one time, who kept beeping because he'd purchased a baseball cap from another store in the mall. Back and forth and back and forth with the poor Border's clerk, till the customer removed his baseball cap and discovered an active transmitter. The odd thing, I heard the customer saying, is that the cap didn't beep on the way in to the Border's store.

If the retail store desires that I walk through a scanner, while passing the merchandise around the scanner, before I make my purchase... okay. At this point, the merchandise is not yet mine. This is sort of what they do at Blockbuster Video. After I've traded my money, however, and the merchandise becomes MINE, it's really not the business of the store's staff as to what I do with my privately-held goods. Whether they can see the goods or not, whether they can touch the goods or not, or whether I'll return to the store or not.

I do understand that retail stores lose much revenue due to shrinkage. I know, too, that the amount of shrinkage is priced right back into the product. Unfortunately, I also know that all of us who buy in retail stores (which is most everybody) must pay the higher price to compensate for those who don't pay.

I'm stating my opinions here. I'm ignorant as to what the law says. In the end, if we are to live in a civilization, we must, in general, obey the law. Yes, it does seem reasonable, and not much more difficult, to return to the store and let the store's staff do what is required by the store's policy. On the other hand, I'll admit to having a problem with authority in certain situations. I'm an honest person who attempts to live within the law and attempts to treat others with a degree of respect. Given the same situation again, I'll behave in the exact same manner, and continue walking out the door. Errr... unless I discover a 'law' that says otherwise.

JSngry, I know what you mean. I don't shop at Sam's Club or Costco. I'm not about to PAY to have access to a retail store, only to be inspected on my way out of the store. As a customer, I'll take my money elsewhere.

By the way, the Hank Mobley (The Flip) and the Charlie Rouse (Bossa Nova Bacchanal) are MUCH better than what I expected.

Then don't ever shop for records in Berkeley. Tower isn't so bad but Rasputin's and Amoeba treat you like you are on the most wanted list. You have to check all your packages, etc. It's like taking a freaking plane ride. What makes it so bad is the way the young, officious little punks who demand you hand over your belongings.

I shop at Costco but their attitude as they check your receipt at the door is a lot more benign.

I usually stop when the thinger goes off and give a righteous indignation look before getting waved on. My worst experience was at Macys. The device was in the pocket of the item. I forgot it was there after trying it on and the clerk didn't notice when I paid for it. So I get to the exit and the security alarm goes off. I realized immediately what happened and told the security guard that the device was in the pocket. I offered him my receipt and then he officiously asked me to step over somewhere in full view of customers where he proceeded to paw through my things at great length and memorize my reciept and check the items and read the receipt, etc. It was one of the most embarrassing moments of my life and it felt like it lasted an eternity. At some point I asked him when he planned to apologize for the embarrassment and inconvenience and he muttered something that I THINK had the word "inconvenience" in it. It was his attitude that was so insulting.

I usually complain to management when something bad happens anywhere any time but I was on lunch break and rushing. When a business apologizes for screwing up, it really makes a big difference. I honestly believe the reason so many people end up in court is because no one knows how to apologize anymore.

[AfricaBrass]

I've avoided mail order as much as I could, so I could support my local business. But, if this is how it is, then maybe I shouldn't feel so bad about doing all my business over the internet.

It's a drag living in a society like this.

[7/4]

Hey. Why did the president's name get added to this discussion?

[7/4]

I think it only would be fair if you do get beeped on your way out of the store (and you have purchased your items), that the store would give you a store credit for 40% of what you purchased.

Since they have no problems tretaing you like a criminal, they should have no problem compensating you for your public embarassment.

Hey yeah! 40%? How about a gift certificate for $1000 bucks!

[wesbed]

I think it only would be fair if you do get beeped on your way out of the store (and you have purchased your items), that the store would give you a store credit for 40% of what you purchased.Since they have no problems tretaing you like a criminal, they should have no problem compensating you for your public embarassment.If this was the case, maybe the management of these stores would make sure their equipment is working properly in the first place. We know they don't care about the customers, but they do care about profits.

I'd thought of something like this too. Great idea, AfricaBrass.

I mean, after I've paid the store for its service, I'm not planning to return to the store, beeped or not, to offer my time to the store for free. Even if the time is only a few minutes. I mean, try getting a discount at a Border's store for, say, only a few cents. My guess, the store won't do it.

However, if the store was to offer me a discount for returning, and making multiple attempts at getting through the security system, when I'm found innocent..? Hey, money talks to me the same as it does to the retail store. If the store wants to examine MY mechandise, the store can pay me for my service to it. Tit for tat.

I'd welcome a 40% discount. I'd accept the discount even for a future purchase. I'd have my buttocks right back in the store, proving my innocence, and earning my 40% discount. In comparison, when the store's response is, "Ok, but... Sir?" Okay, but, I'm walking out the door with MY merchandise.

Edited May 2, 2004 by wesbed

[nmorin]

When I've set off the beeper I've always stopped, no problem. Wesbed asked, but I didn't see an answer--and it's a question I've wondered about: What, legally, is the situtation--not morally, or what is right or proper for a right thinking citizen, etc--just strictly legally. Certainly if I am in the store, it's open season on me, but if I am in the parking lot, walking to the car, how is the security guard any different from John Q. Public? Why, legally, do I need to satifsy his curiosity any more than I am required to please a random stranger? If I said, "Sorry, pal, I ain't showin' you Jack Shit", what's the legal deal?

Just curious (really!).

Edited May 1, 2004 by nmorin

[PHILLYQ]

I was in Toys'r'us one day with my son when he was nine(he's twelve now), and they have this absurd security thing where you pay and then someone checks your bag to see if there's anything else you may have stolen or a crooked employee slipped into your bag. So we had bought one item, and there were people ahead of us, we were in a hurry, so I waved my receipt VERY CLEARLY so that this punk could see it AND showed him the bag. We were already out of the store and on the way to the parking lot when this punk comes out of the store and starts CURSING at me in front of my son. Well, I freaked out and marched back into the store and got a hold of a manager and explained what happened. He apologized and said "He doesn't work here anymore."

[Tjazz]

It's all Bush and Ashcroft's fault!

If you steal, you must be a terrorist.

[Tjazz]

I went to Border's today. I took advantage (again) of the 'Buy 3, Get 1 Free' sale.

Considering we all took advantage of Border's 50% off sale a couple of years ago. (at least I did, several times)

I don't feel too bad that Borders is trying to crack down on shoplifting.

At least Borders is still in business.

[mgraham333]

My reaction would be (and has been) on par with Dan Gould's suggestions.

I did a quick google search and found this this article about shoplifting and false arrest.

And one more thought....

Once the new RFID tags are in wide-spread use the conversation will go something like this:

"Sir, would you mind stepping back over here for a moment. It looks as though we didn't deactivate all of the security tags on your merchandise. Let's see the items in your bag and we'll take care of that for you. Okay, I'm looking at the RFID tag report from our security system. I see Cecil Taylor, Jackie McLean, and Andrew Hill these are all in your bag - but the security report also shows Kenny G - Live.... that's not in your bag... sir..... can you explain......."

[Free For All]

One more point, about the security devices themselves.  It really has little to do with the skill, or lack thereof, of the employee.  This crap simply doesn't work the way it was designed. 

Mark, I don't mean to say that the employees are the only ones responsible- I agree that it's also the design of the devices that's at fault.

But that being said, most times when I've asked a question at Borders (or Barnes & Nobles, or Best Buy, etc.) if the computer can't answer it, with a few exceptions, I'm pretty much on my own. Yes, that's how things are run these days, and I don't fault the workers, but I miss the days of the "knowledgeable employee" who could function off-the-cuff and actually seemed interested in helping you. At these places I often end up helping customers more than the reticent employees. And there's no slight intended to those who were doing a good job - they just seem to be in the minority. I just feel when I'm looking for help there's often an avoidance of eye contact, i.e., "I don't want to deal with you, I just want to quietly serve my time and go home". Since the "help" is usually of little use and more often than not accompanied by attitude, I'd just as soon be on my own when I go into the store. This is what I perceive pretty much everywhere I shop these days. And I'm a very low-maintenance customer.

I wish some of the Borders, etc. employees who hang out here worked at the Borders I go to.........

Edited May 2, 2004 by Free For All