Who do you wish Lee Morgan had recorded more with?

[Rooster_Ties]

Please answer the poll, and say why you chose what you did, and if you have any strong liking for any of the other titles.

Also, as a side note - I'm particularly interested in hearing about these 5 dates (below), which I'm not at all familiar with...

Charles Earland: "Intensity"

Bobbi Humphrey: "Flute In"

Harold Mabern: "Greasy Kid Stuff"

Lonnie Smith: "Turning Point"

Jack Wilson: "Easterly Winds"

As a question separate from the poll, which of these five dates are "must have" recordings, for fans of Lee Morgan's later work??? Which one(s) should I buy first??

Thanks!!!

PS: Here's a link (below) to what is probably a pretty darn complete Lee Morgan discography/sessionography, with sidemen and all the particulars for each of these albums, listed in the poll above...

Disco: http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~lee/lee/leedisco.htm

Main page: http://www.fsinet.or.jp/~lee/lee/leemorgn.htm

Edited April 30, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Rooster_Ties]

It was a hard choice between Larry Young, and Andrew Hill. Went with Larry Young, cuz there's almost twice as much Lee Morgan with Hill available. And there's nothing I've ever heard, quite like Lee's playing on "Mother Ship".

[bertrand]

Mother Ship, no hesitation.

Even though it was not released at the time, Lee mentioned this session in an interview, so you know he had a soft spot for it.

Ever notice the similarities between some of Lee's playing on this album to Miles' playing on Bitches' Brew? For example, compare the end of Lee's solo on 'Trip Merchant' (around 5:30) to Miles' solo on 'Pharoah's Dance'. I have a theory...

Bertrand.

[Ed S]

No hesitation for me either in picking Mother Ship. I'm a big fan of this session. Put into the context of how jazz and Blue Note were changing at the time makes it more remarkable. I would have loved to hear what Morgan would have done had he lived through the 70s, including a few more sessions with Larry Young.

[Rooster_Ties]

Mother Ship, no hesitation.

Even though it was not released at the time, Lee mentioned this session in an interview, so you know he had a soft spot for it.

Ever notice the similarities between some of Lee's playing on this album to Miles' playing on Bitches' Brew?  For example, compare the end of Lee's solo on 'Trip Merchant' (around 5:30) to Miles' solo on 'Pharoah's Dance'.  I have a theory...

Bertrand.

Hmmm.... What interview? Did he mention anything specific about the "Mother Ship" session?? (How did it come up?)

And, you know -- I have definitely noticed similarities between "Mother Ship" and "Bitches Brew" before. And, "Mother Ship" was recorded in February 1969, and "Bitches Brew" in August 1969. And Larry Young was on one of the "Bitches Brew" sessions of Aug. 19-21, 1969, although he's only on the Aug. 21st date (on "Spanish Key" and "Pharaoh's Dance").

There are aspects of Lee's playing that certainly remind me a whole bunch of Miles in 1969 and beyond. (Can't cite specfic licks off the top of my head, but I'll give "Mother Ship" a spin this week and see which ones pop out at me.)

Also, I think Eddie Gladden has some 'mad fills', particularly the ones that are almost "machine gun"-like, that remind me of DeJohnette. Gladden is not as controlled player as Dejohnette, but I think there are some other similarities between the two.

Who's influencing whom, here, would certainly be an interesting topic to pursue. B)

[connoisseur series500]

This was difficult for me to answer as I haven't heard Lee Morgan on many of these selections. I voted for his work on "Love Bug." All the soloists cook on this session. However, it has to be stated that Lee really doesn't add anything new on this session. He just blows good.

"Love Bug" is one of the best Rare Grooves that I've ever heard. One of my favorite cds.

[JSngry]

Also, as a side note - I'm particularly interested in hearing about these 5 dates (below), which I'm not at all familiar with...

Charles Earland: "Intensity"

Bobbi Humphrey: "Flute In"

Harold Mabern: "Greasy Kid Stuff"

Lonnie Smith: "Turning Point"

Jack Wilson: "Easterly Winds"

I'm familiar with 3:

Charles Earland: "Intensity" - VERY nice, and w/Billy Harper as well (other material from this date came out on CHARLES III - did Fantasy collate them all for their CD?). Plus, there's the "classic" version of "Will You Still Love Me Tomorrow", an obvious, but successful, attempt to follow up on "More Today Than Yesterday".

Bobbi Humphrey: "Flute In" - don't ask...Lee & Billy are on this one too (as is Hank Jones), and it's Humphrey's most "jazzy" BN, but, just as regardless of the context it's still Lee Morgan & Billy Harper, regardless of the context, it's still Bobbi Humphrey, and it's mostly her show. Enough of Billy & Lee to make for a decent enough casual listen, but essentially for completists and cheap-used-LP-bin denizens only.

Lonnie Smith: "Turning Point" - pretty good. A bit draggy in spots for my taste, and certainly no THINK, but w/Benny Maupin & Julian Preister sharing the front line w/Lee, good stuff happens often enough.

I've heard really good things about the Wilson, but have never heard it, and know nothing about the Mabern - the lineup looks good, though, & Hubert Laws play tenore as well as flute, so that intrigues me.

[Soul Stream]

I voted for Mothership as well....mostly because Larry brings out the very adventuresome side of Lee much the way that Grachan's "Evolution" did....(now why isn't Grachan isn't on the list? )

Also, I don't know of a session where Lee Morgan could obviously care less about being there than Reuben Wilson's "Love Bug." Still a great session, but Morgan just doesn't care and some of his solos are his worst on any recording.

Turning Point is O.K>drags on a bit and isn't one of my favs...

Edited April 30, 2003 by Soul Stream

[Rooster_Ties]

.....much the way that Grachan's "Evolution" did....(now why isn't Grachan isn't on the list? )

I noticed that only after I had already created and submitted the poll, and there's no way to go back and edit.

I looked at the Lee Morgan on-line discography, and worked backwards from the Earland. Then when I started hitting the people Lee recorded with really often, like Jackie McLean, and Hank Mobley, I thought... "well, that's it".

Oh well, the poll/subject does say "late 60's", and his Moncur work was early 60's.

[bertrand]

Rooster,

I'll have to dig up the interview. Lee is listing some recent recordings of his, and he mentions a recent date with the 'avant-garde' organist Larry Young.

As for the Bitches Brew/Mother Ship connection, you had the same idea as me, but I can do you one better!

Here are the clues:

2/7/69: Mother Ship is recorded

2/18/69: Miles Davis In A Silent Way is recorded; according to the notes to the recent box set, Larry Young is present in the studio, although he does not play

8/19-21/69: Miles Davis Bitches' Brew is recorded

Here's my theory, based on the clues and the strong similarity between some of the licks on Lee's solo on 'Trip Merchant' and Miles' solo on 'Pharoah's Dance' (one of the two BB tracks on which Larry appears):

Larry is at the Silent Way session, brought in by one of the musicians (Williams or McLaughlin?). He is not there to record, but to bring an audition tape to Miles. The tape? Mother Ship, of course, which was just recorded less than two weeks before. Miles listens to the tape, digs Lee and Larry's playing, and hires Larry for his next studio album. While he's at it, he picks a few select Lee Morgan riffs. But, much more importantly, the whole feel of Bitches' Brew is inspired by Mother Ship.

How far-fetched is this? I don't know. I had a chance to run my theory by Herbie on Sunday (we were talking about Larry), but he had to go onstage and I didn't think of asking him until it was too late. Damn.

Note: My theory comes apart if Rudy Van Gelder has a firm rule about no one taking home copies of the sessions at his studio. However, we know Coltrane would do this, so there probably is no such a rule.

Feel free to point out how wrong I must be...

Bertrand.

[pryan]

Man, you guys have really got me pumped for the upcoming batch of Conns (due to the probable prescence of MOTHER SHIP, of course). Really looking forward to October! By the way, that's an interesting theory Bertrand, I'd like to do a comparison for myself of those two tunes that you mention and the 'styles' or particular licks of the two trumpeters.

[bertrand]

Check out Lee's solo near the end, at about 5:15 or 5:30.

Bertrand.

[Rooster_Ties]

This thread is turning into a regular "Mother Ship" love fest!!!

I've always loved this date, from the first day I ever heard it. The first time I got the Larry Young box (about 2-3 years ago), the only albums of his (lead by Young) that I knew were "Into Somethin", and "Unity". When I got to that last disc in the set, the one with "Mother Ship", I was completely and totally blown away. I thought "this is Lee Morgan!!???????" - holy shit!!!

I mean, I always liked Lee Morgan well enough (and my appreciation of him has only grown and grown over the years). But at that time, I pretty much thought Morgan was just a hard-bopper (although obviously a damn fine one). Still, I wasn't as into hard-bop at the time, and I was a tiny bit dismissive of Lee Morgan (really of hard-bop in general, more so than of Lee). (At the time, I hadn't yet heard Lee Morgan's "Lighthouse" material, nor his last studio album with Billy Harper.)

Then, when I heard "Mother Ship", I had to change my whole concept of Lee Morgan, and what he was capable of. Then I got Andrew Hill's "Grass Roots" and especially "Lift Every Voice", and I heard more Morgan in really challenging contexts, and I was totally hooked.

And, I think hearing Lee play like that gave me a deeper appreciation of his more 'inside' material too. I began to notice more of the subtle things he did all the time, on every date - like slurs, and scoops - things you can't as easily notate. And I even began to hear some of these things in the Lee Morgan 50's sessions, which I finally got (meaning the Lee Morgan BN Mosaic).

All this, because of "Mother Ship". If only Lee had recorded with Sun Ra (when Ra was feeling a bit more 'inside'), or more with Andrew Hill.

I think I said this in another thread, but can you imagine a series of Andrew Hill albums in the early 70's, on Strata East, some of which might have had Lee Morgan!!! I know, this really stretches the imagination a bit -- but LP #2, side one, of Hill's "One For One" double-LP (the side without the string quartet) totally has that Strata East vibe going for it (Charles Tolliver's on that side).

What magic there would have been with several Hill dates with Lee Morgan, on Strata East, in the early 70's.

(I know, I know, I know - lots of things would have had to have been much, much different..... But I can dream about those things, can't I???)

[sidewinder]

I have to say that Lee's playing on McCoy's 'Tender Moments' gets my vote. This is an absolutely cracking session with some exceptionally fiery Lee Morgan that seems to be routinely overlooked. 'Lee Plus Three' is one of his greatest tracks..

Not far behind in my estimation are Lonnie Smith's 'Think' and Larry Young's 'Mother Ship'. The latter could probably have done with a little more rehearsal, nevertheless it's still a fine session. For me, the track 'Love Drops' is probably the finest thing on the album (and also the most straight ahead). 'Think' is distinguished by an unlikely but very compatible front line of Morgan and 'Fathead' Newman. These two work together exceptionally well (as they did on the 'Sonic Boom' session).

Just listening to 'Trip Merchant' on the LP version of the Larry Y Mosaic. Can't say that I see a massive similarity with Miles' work on 'Pharoah's Dance' but nevertheless both of these albums have strong mutual influences. Dig Larry's phenomenal organ solo on 'Mother Ship'. Unbeatable !

In descending order, I would rate the top 5 as follows:

- Tender Moments

- Think

- Mother Ship

- Prime Element

- Grass Roots/Lift Every Voice.

Haven't heard 'Turning Point', 'Love Bug' or the Mabern so can't comment on those. 'Easterly Winds' is a nice, more or less straight ahead date. Nothing exceptional happens but its by no means a bad one either. Worth a listen !

[Rooster_Ties]

I have to say that Lee's playing on McCoy's 'Tender Moments' gets my vote. This is an absolutely cracking session with some exceptionally fiery Lee Morgan that seems to be routinely overlooked. 'Lee Plus Three' is one of his greatest tracks..

Makes me really wish there was a McCoy Tyner album from 1969 or 1970, with just McCoy, Lee Morgan, plus bass and drums.

I love "piano trio plus trumpet" albums quite a lot, and it's a shame Lee Morgan didn't do one sometime in the late 60's.

( If I remember right, I think "Candy" was Lee's only "piano trio plus trumpet" album, either as leader or sideman. )

[kdd]

I like Lee with Joe Henderson. The Sidewinder and Mode For Joe (and to a lesser extent The Rumproller) made me want to hear more from this combo.

[Dmitry]

I wish Lee recorded more...period. Too bad his life ended so quick. One of the best trumpeters this music ever had.

Ever.

[Jazzmoose]

I had to go with Andrew Hill, but keep in mind that I have never heard Mother Ship. (Gasp! No! Who let this ignorant heathen in here???) I guess I should. As for the others, I highly recommend the Earland disc. Like Grassroots, I bought it just because Lee was on it, but like Grassroots, I discovered a fine artist I was unfamiliar with. I enjoy Love Bug as well, but I think it pales in comparison to Intensity.

But then no one here really listens to organ music anyway, do they?

[Rooster_Ties]

Man, I love this board. How many other jazz boards would have voted this much for Andew Hill and Larry Young?? - (and really 'progressive' Larry Young at that!!).

I'm not saying there's any kind of bias for these more progressive players (here on the Organissimo board), but I do think we embrace these 'very progressive' but not quite 'avant garde' players more than most on the other jazz boards.

Guess that's why I like it here so much!!

[danasgoodstuff]

Sonny Rollins, which would make it "more than nothing" which is not quite what you asked, but this has long been my fantasy tape find...maybe Lee was too close to Clifford Brown for it to have been comfortable for Sonny?

[Rooster_Ties]

I like Lee with Joe Henderson. The Sidewinder and Mode For Joe (and to a lesser extent The Rumproller) made me want to hear more from this combo.

How about Lee Morgan on a Joe Henderson album in about 1971??

Edited May 19, 2003 by Rooster_Ties

[Guest Mnytime]

Voted for Larry Young. Though I would really have loved to see him with Trane more. I also would liked to see him with Monk. Now that would have been interesting as hell to have heard.

[Cali]

My vote would be John Coltrane. Trane wanted Lee in his classic group but couldn't hire him away from Blakey, according to liner notes on "Newport '63". Also, Trane asked Wes Montgomery to join his group but Wes, allegedly, said he didn't think he was ready. What a super group that would have been!

[Rooster_Ties]

Although I voted for "Mother Ship", I was listening to Hill's "Lift Every Voice" again last night, and I keep finding new things to like in Lee's playing on this date.

I guess it goes without saying that I wish Lee had recorded in more "progressive" contexts - but then again, given his short life - I should probably be thankful that he did play on as many progressive dates as he did.

Still, I'm beginning to think more and more, that Andrew Hill (especially) brought out a side of Lee Morgan that no one else could. A side that was both bold, and introspective, and restrained, and harmonically rich - all at the same time.

I hear this more on "Lift Ever Voice" than on "Grass Roots", but there's still an aspect of this for me on "Grass Roots" too. I even hear it on the Hill/Morgan dates from Hank Mobley's "No Room For Squares". (I mentioned this in another thread, but I never got that date ("No Room For Squares, specifically the sides with Hill and Morgan), until I started listening to that album as a sort of Andrew Hill album, rather than a Hank Mobley album.)

[Vincent, Paris]

My vote would be John Coltrane. Trane wanted Lee in his classic group but couldn't hire him away from Blakey, according to liner notes on "Newport '63".

Cali,

Could you please develop on or quote the liner notes you mentionned ?