Musicians/jerks

[7/4]

And...a lot of musicans go through personal headtrips before performing. I've worked with some people who go through some pretty strange shit.

I've been on some gigs where my blood sugar has been very low by the end of the show thus missing the opportunity to get some leg, ie inability to hold a conversation.

Oh well...

[PHILLYQ]

I know Ron Carter isa tough professor. A friend of mine went to the music program at City College in NYC, and Ron Carter was one of his professors. My friend said he was pretty demanding, but he did not say that in a negative way.

Maren makes a very good point, though, about the single encounter as a poor way to judge a person. Maybe Ron Carter had to go to the bathroom really bad, or his lunch was playing tricks on him, his shoes were too tight, etc. Everybody has their bad days, too.

[Big Wheel]

No, Ron Carter has a reputation for being kind of an unapproachable jerk. This wasn't the first such story I've heard like that.

[RainyDay]

Well, for the record (ahem, ahem,), my Zawinul story was as much about the WR organization as it was about him personally. Also, we had to go through a lot of stupidity with the Bill Graham organization to get them booked. The whole experience was one chain pulling exercise after another. Then when Zawinul does this Ice Queen routine, I just threw up my hands. I don't necessarily hold it against him musically. It just taught me to leave people alone.

You know, George Benson opened the festival and at the time the album Breezin was a HUGE hit. He was nice as pie (he was also sick as a dog but that's another story).

[Joe G]

No, Ron Carter has a reputation for being kind of an unapproachable jerk. This wasn't the first such story I've heard like that.

A friend of mine saw Ron w/Jim Hall here in Lansing in the 80's, and got backstage. He overheard someone say to Ron, "Ron, you've played with so many greats--Wes Montgomery, Miles Davis, Stanley Turrentine, etc... Ron stopped the guy and said, "They played with ME!"

My friend didn't bother to approach him after that.

[Joe G]

(Of course, if I ever see Organissimo or Quartet Out that goes out the window.  At the very least a "what the fuck did you mean by that post, you asshole!" can be expected... )

Jazzmoose, this is what you can expect in return:

[tonym]

What about Miles??  My wife brought this up in conversation over dinner, just last night.

How do we resolve our enjoyment of his music, with his deplorable behavior towards women??

Stop reading bios.

In all honesty, I think this is probably good advice. Or listening/reading interviews. Let musicians speak with their music. Let authors speak with their books.

I was just thinking about this.

If an 'artist' is espousing anti-social or plainly ignorant actions in their lyrics -- you may not listen to them. I would switch off if a neo-nazi punk thrash band came on TV. But if I hear a beautiful rendition of one of my favourite tunes, then the guy goes home and does some evil stuff in his spare time, I would never know. You're just hearing the notes, it's a bonus if they seem a nice bloke too.

There may be one jazz musician that surfs dodgy web sites or kicks the neighbours dog for every ten that comes across as curt or nasty off stage.

I've been sworn at and threatened by some of the best riders in Europe (and one from the States, but he was a complete twat anyway!) but at the end of the day, they were probably feeling under pressure and you get along fine afterwards... most of the time.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have witnessed Ron Carter acting the "complete asshole".

Made me grin when asking Benny Carter (no known relation) about desired personnel for a big band I was putting together for him, Benny said "I trust you, just don't hire Ron Carter".

Joe G is another difficult personality.

[Joe G]

Perhaps it's our dealings with record producers that make us musicians so cranky...

[chris olivarez]

I can accept a player being out of sorts because of something unfavorable happening to him or her at the time but when someone becomes so in love with themself that they think it's ok to treat someone like dirt-well that just sucks.I've heard some good music by Ron Carter but I've also heard some stuff that he's put out that should have humbled him.

Joe Zawinul is a great musician but from what I've heard he doesn't strike me as an overly warm guy.

[chris olivarez]

(Of course, if I ever see Organissimo or Quartet Out that goes out the window.  At the very least a "what the fuck did you mean by that post, you asshole!" can be expected... )

Jazzmoose, this is what you can expect in return:

Oh Moose now you've gone and done it.

[James]

Once on a trip to Texas I got a chance to hear JSngry play in an upstairs venue. When I asked him to autograph my CD he pushed me down a flight of stairs. Y'see, he comes off as a "centered" even-tempered guy when in fact he's a monster. (BTW --- his show was marvelous. Just don't get *anywhere* near him during a band break!)

[Jazzmoose]

I would love to vouch for the accuracy of James' report, but my lawyer assures me that any violation of the "nondisclosure" clause of the settlement will result in major hassles...

[JSngry]

Once on a trip to Texas I got a chance to hear JSngry play in an upstairs venue. When I asked him to autograph my CD he pushed me down a flight of stairs. Y'see, he comes off as a "centered" even-tempered guy when in fact he's a monster. (BTW --- his show was marvelous. Just don't get *anywhere* near him during a band break!)

Hey, man - let's be fair - when I found out you weren't from the IRS, didn't I try to push you back UP the stairs?

Guess there's no pleasing some people....

[JSngry]

I would love to vouch for the accuracy of James' report, but my lawyer assures me that any violation of the "nondisclosure" clause of the settlement will result in major hassles...

Merely disclosing that there was in fact a settlement violates the nondisclosure" clause. I'm calling my people as we speak.

Your lawyer was right - your ass is now officially grass. Prepare to be gang-mowed.

[James]

When I considered "going after" Jim, my attorney informed me that a judge or jury might not be too sympathetic to my case given the fact that I *boosted* (effron style) the disc I asked Jim to sign.

And yes, Jim's account of the aftermath is correct. All's well that ends well. I learned a valuable lesson in honesty, and the recovery (with physical therapy) took only six months!

[JSngry]

And didn't I pay 50% of the replacement cost of a new shirt to replace the one that got blood on it? Sure, a Fruit Of The Loom T-Shirt ain't exactly an Alexander Julian, but I didn't HAVE to do anything!

My generosity and genuine concern for the human condition is often SEVERELY underestimated!

[fasstrack]

On 22/04/2004 at 6:27 PM, chris olivarez said:

 

Best possible advice.

I made the mistake of trying to hang out with a certain troubled musician (who wound up dying horribly a few years later). His life was going down the tubes, and he was looking for a whipping boy. I had gotten on his nerves, and was elected. He unleashed a verbal a ssault on me that was stunning in the backyard of the Jazz Cultural Theater. I learned that night not to f with certain people no matter how much you may admire their music.

Most lessons in life worth learning are hard learned, I find...

[fasstrack]

On 23/04/2004 at 4:21 PM, Chuck Nessa said:

I have witnessed Ron Carter acting the "complete asshole".

 

Made me grin when asking Benny Carter (no known relation) about desired personnel for a big band I was putting together for him, Benny said "I trust you, just don't hire Ron Carter".

 

Joe G is another difficult personality.

And to everyone else who commented on Mr. Carter's behavior:

 

I was Ron's student at CCNY in the late '80s. I took Rhythm Seminar and was in his ensemble. I was intimidated at first by his manner, which I thought was stiff and off-putting. 

But in time I came to realize that I was the one with the problem, being immature and egotistical, though I was already 32. Ron was understanding and very much on my side, a fact I came to realize after the fact.

Once he told Lewis Nash to play double-time at a certain rehearsal #. At the next rehearsal there was a different drummer. I was sitting next to Mr. Carter on the sidelines and with my big mouth I reminded him that he had wanted to have double-time at letter B. I was speaking out of turn, and he would have been right to tell me to shut up or otherwise put me in my place. Instead all he did was turn to me and rejoin 'he plays different'.

All in all, I learned a lot from Ron Carter about how to rehearse a band, how to slow down the tempo to get the details, and how to adjust to different musicians' capabilities. This stood me in good stead as a bandleader. 

Ron Carter is one of the more intelligent and articulate people I've known in the music business. He has his ways, for sure. I'm glad I ran into him, and I hope I get a chance to work with him sometime. He is jazz history.

And I aced the class! 

Edited April 29, 2016 by fasstrack

[fasstrack]

4 hours ago, fasstrack said:

And to everyone else who commented on Mr. Carter's behavior:

 

I was Ron's student at CCNY in the late '80s. I took Rhythm Seminar and was in his ensemble. I was intimidated at first by his manner, which I thought was stiff and off-putting. 

But in time I came to realize that I was the one with the problem, being immature and egotistical, though I was already 32. Ron was understanding and very much on my side, a fact I came to realize after the fact.

Once he told Lewis Nash to play double-time at a certain rehearsal #. At the next rehearsal there was a different drummer. I was sitting next to Mr. Carter on the sidelines and with my big mouth I reminded him that he had wanted to have double-time at letter B. I was speaking out of turn, and he would have been right to tell me to shut up or otherwise put me in my place. Instead all he did was turn to me and rejoin 'he plays different'.

All in all, I learned a lot from Ron Carter about how to rehearse a band, how to slow down the tempo to get the details, and how to adjust to different musicians' capabilities. This stood me in good stead as a bandleader. 

Ron Carter is one of the more intelligent and articulate people I've known in the music business. He has his ways, for sure. I'm glad I ran into him, and I hope I get a chance to work with him sometime. He is jazz history.

And I aced the class! 

There is another thread here where people declare that Ron is a jerk. I searched so that I could put a link to the above comments, but was unable to find it. Can anyone help?

[Justin V]

I talked with Ron Carter after a gig in DC and he was warm and charming.  I have nothing but respect and admiration for him.  

[duaneiac]

One musician who had a reputation for being gruff and prickly was Ruby Braff.  I never met him, never even got to see him perform live.  But there was a time when I was in the habit of sending birthday cards to my musical heroes just to thank them for the wonderful music they have bestowed on us throughout their career and to wish them well.  I figure most jazz musicians are not going to get rich, so they may at least be rewarded with the confirmation that their work has meant a lot to some people and will long be remembered and appreciated.

I never expected anything back from these greetings I mailed out, but one day in the mail came a letter from Ruby Braff, a full page and a half hand-written, very sweet and gracious letter.  One could probably tell from his music alone, but this letter proved to me that underneath the fabled gruff exterior of Ruby Braff beat a kind, sentimental and generous heart.

[fasstrack]

19 hours ago, duaneiac said:

One musician who had a reputation for being gruff and prickly was Ruby Braff.  I never met him, never even got to see him perform live.  But there was a time when I was in the habit of sending birthday cards to my musical heroes just to thank them for the wonderful music they have bestowed on us throughout their career and to wish them well.  I figure most jazz musicians are not going to get rich, so they may at least be rewarded with the confirmation that their work has meant a lot to some people and will long be remembered and appreciated.

I never expected anything back from these greetings I mailed out, but one day in the mail came a letter from Ruby Braff, a full page and a half hand-written, very sweet and gracious letter.  One could probably tell from his music alone, but this letter proved to me that underneath the fabled gruff exterior of Ruby Braff beat a kind, sentimental and generous heart.

Nice story about Ruby Braff. I actually witnessed him in action in 1977, at a memorial for guitarist Sam Brown. He was mean and sexist in his comments about a female singer who performed. (She was annoying and insincere). I won't print what he said because there are women on this board.

Part of his anger may have stemmed from the fact that he was blackballed by the very powerful Joe Glaser---whose bad side he had gotten on. You can dig up a DownBeat from, I think, the earliest '80s where he talks about this. I guess he dug his own grave. Too bad. He was a great player who took Pops someplace of his own.

I did hear two amusing stories: 1: A musician said to another 'you're gonna work with Ruby? Don't worry if he hates you. He hates everybody'.

2: Ruby at a recording session, as the musicians were opening their cases: 'that's too goddamn loud already!'

Ruby's nickname for Eddie Locke: The Mandrill. For Dick Hyman: The Cash Register

A real character...

 

[duaneiac]

6 hours ago, fasstrack said:

Nice story about Ruby Braff. I actually witnessed him in action in 1977, at a memorial for guitarist Sam Brown. He was mean and sexist in his comments about a female singer who performed. (She was annoying and insincere). I won't print what he said because there are women on this board.

Part of his anger may have stemmed from the fact that he was blackballed by the very powerful Joe Glaser---whose bad side he had gotten on. You can dig up a DownBeat from, I think, the earliest '80s where he talks about this. I guess he dug his own grave. Too bad. He was a great player who took Pops someplace of his own.

I did hear two amusing stories: 1: A musician said to another 'you're gonna work with Ruby? Don't worry if he hates you. He hates everybody'.

2: Ruby at a recording session, as the musicians were opening their cases: 'that's too goddamn loud already!'

Ruby's nickname for Eddie Locke: The Mandrill. For Dick Hyman: The Cash Register

A real character...

 

Thanks for those anecdotes about Ruby Braff.  I have no doubt that he well deserved his reputation for being a jerk.  There are just too many stories about him to deny that conclusion.  Maybe my birthday greetings just caught him on a good day.  It was towards the end of his life when I wrote him, so perhaps he had mellowed a bit or perhaps he was a little more reflective given that he must have realized the end was nearing.  Didn't he battle emphysema the last few years of his life?  Anyway, I never expected a reply from any of the musicians I sent birthday greetings to (now sadly almost all gone, save for Sonny Rollins who sent me a thank you card!), least of all from the notorious Ruby Braff.  The fact that he would take even 10 minutes to write a thank you letter to some one he'd never met, and the contents of that letter as well, showed me there must have been a softer side to the man as well.

[Stereojack]

While I never actually met him in person, Ruby listened to my late night radio show regularly, and called me many times - during the show, at work, and even at home. He was always warm and complimentary to me, although there was always a certain saltiness to him, particularly when the subject of club owners and bookers came up.  Many is the time he praised musicians with whom he had worked, and others he had met. I remember him praising Benny Goodman (who he admired), and raving about Roger Kellaway after they had done a project together, and one time he went on about Dave Brubeck. He also was enthusiastic about a number of the records I played, so we hit it off pretty well.

Although I have heard all the stories, I got to know a kinder, gentler Ruby Braff.