Musicians/jerks

[patricia]

I don't think that the ranks of artists, writers and musicians are populated by a disproportianate number of jerks, just that we are touched by their art and are more disappointed upon the discovery of their asshole-ness.

My own thought has often been consternation over how a person who creates such beauty, which moves me, sometimes to tears, has no heart in real life. A shame, but it doesn't alter my appreciation of the magic they create.

[JSngry]

You gotta consider the possibility that some artists use their art to create the kind of reality for themselves that they'd LIKE to have for themselves but can't/don't/won't.

[Noj]

How 'bout that tirade by Buddy Rich at his bandmates on the bus? Wow, what a jerk!

However, I've heard some good tunes by Buddy Rich. I generally wouldn't associate the personality with the music.

[7/4]

How 'bout that tirade by Buddy Rich at his bandmates on the bus? Wow, what a jerk!

Classic!

[Soulstation1]

hey, all you huys can kiss my ass and your wives are ugly.

js1

[PHILLYQ]

James Brown treated his band so badly that they all quit on him! He's also beaten wives, even shot at one! But his music is still the gold standard for funk, so I have to divorce the person(Who may be a complete and total jerk.) from the musician.

Jim Sangrey's point about artists creating the world that they'd LIKE to see is,as usual , right on the money.

[couw]

LFC was an overt anti-semite who wrote several very nasty pamphlets and articles in the years just before and also during the occupation.

I know that.

I think he wrote 3 anti-semitic pamphlets and was indicted by the French courts for that. It was before WWII.

I couldn't find any information on the web that would be at least a little bit more descriptive than that. Especially the part about him being a Nazi collaborator.

maybe brownie knows more. AFAIK he wrote Bagatelles pour un masacre in 1937, L'école des cadavres in 1938; both of these were banned in 1939, in spite of their success. Soon after the German occupation started, the ban was lifted and in 1941 he wrote Les beaux draps. During the war he seems to have socialised with Germans and antisemites. He published several letters and articles in newspapers. I have no knowledge about more than that; no overt collaboration in any other sense than agreeing with some nevertheless very abject ideas. Many artists and normal people who continued working throughout the war and were not at all in agreement with the nazi ideology were later charged with collaboration. It was a wide "blanket charge." Heck, in Belgium they even tried to have comic artist Hergé sued for collaboration only because he, like many others, followed the King's order to continue working and keep the country and its people alive.

[brownie]

LFC was an overt anti-semite who wrote several very nasty pamphlets and articles in the years just before and also during the occupation.

I know that.

I think he wrote 3 anti-semitic pamphlets and was indicted by the French courts for that. It was before WWII.

I couldn't find any information on the web that would be at least a little bit more descriptive than that. Especially the part about him being a Nazi collaborator.

Celine was not a nazi collaborator. He was a collaborator of the Vichy government that ruled France from 1940 to 1944. Celine had little love for anybody and did not like the Germans (nazis or not)either. He wrote several anti-semitic pamplets including the notorious 'Bagatelles Pour un Massacre' ('Trifles for a Massacre') from 1937 on. All his anti-semitic pamphlets are still banned from sale or publication in France.

Celine also wrote numerous violently antisemitic articles throughout the nazi occupation.

He fled France as the Vichy regime collapsed and traveled to Germany with some of the worst collaborators of the Vichy regime. From Germany he fled to Denmark during the last days of the War and settled there.

He was condemned in absentia for collaboration and was declared a national disgrace. He was pardoned in 1951 and was allowed to return to France where he died in 1961.

Several of his best books - and highly readable ones I have to say - recount his adventures out of France at the end of WWII. The best are 'Guignol's Band' and 'From Castle to Castle'.

[couw]

and for a hilarious intermezzo you can read the "Conversations with Professor Y"

[Larry Kart]

The self-serving interviews with Artie Shaw in the mid-1980s Canadian film bio of him convinced me that Shaw was/is a narcissistic jerk in the top class. On the other hand, he played like an angel more often than not, and I'm unable to detect in his music (esp. in his own playing) that blend of hollow intellectual pretentiousness and rampant insecurity that makes him so hard to take as a human being.

BTW there was an amusing encounter between two other candidates for the Jerk Award -- Getz and Mulligan -- at the Chicago Jazz Festival ( in 1985 as I recall, for reasons that will become clear in a bit). The situation (Chuck Nessa probably can correct me if I've got it wrong) was that one of them (Getz, I'm pretty sure) was to join the other (that would be Mulligan, then) and his rhythm section toward the end of Gerry's set to play Zoot Sims' "The Red Door" as a tribute to Sims, who had died that March. But during the afternoon rehearsal for that evening's concert, Mulligan had pulled some shit -- refused to run through the tune with Stan, pulled his rhythm section off the stage, I'm not sure what, but very harsh words were exchanged between the two according to an eyewitness (not Chuck and not me either). Anyway, the eyewitness, who was driving Stan back to his hotel, was genuinely concerned that what had gone down between Stan and Gerry had been so nasty that perhaps that evening's schedule would need to be revised. Those concerns were voiced to Stan, who replied: "Don't worry, I've played with the fageleh before, and I can play with him again." (In Yiddish, "fageleh" [pronounced "Fay-geh-leh" in case my spelling is off] literally means "bird" but is the slang term for someone who is effeminate and/or an effeminate homosexual (not that there's anything wrong with that). My assumption is that Stan didn't mean that literally; rather, "fageleh" expressed his feeling that Gerry could be a prissy/bitchy control-freak.

[Jazzmoose]

What about Miles??  My wife brought this up in conversation over dinner, just last night.

How do we resolve our enjoyment of his music, with his deplorable behavior towards women??

Stop reading bios.

In all honesty, I think this is probably good advice. Or listening/reading interviews. Let musicians speak with their music. Let authors speak with their books.

[Dmitry]

Alexander said Celine was a nazi collaborator and I doubted that.

Being a plain anti-semite and being a nazi are two not so big, but still differences.

It certainly does not elevate Celine in my eyes, but clarifies one or two things.

Thanks , brownie & couw!

[JSngry]

I've heard some good tunes by Buddy Rich. I generally wouldn't associate the personality with the music.

Listen closer:

http://www2.bitstream.net/~tgg/rafiles/kindacute.ra

[brownie]

Even good old Jacques-Yves Cousteau showed an abject anti-semitic side in several letters he wrote during the Occupation. His brother Pierre-Antoine was also a pro-nazi anti-semite who edited and wrote in the collaboration newspaper 'Je Suis Partout'.

Pierre-Antoine Cousteau was sentenced to death at the end of WWII..

Jacques-Yves Cousteau intervened to change the sentence into life imprisonment.

[Dmitry]

Even good old Jacques-Yves Cousteau showed an abject anti-semitic side in several letters he wrote during the Occupation. His brother Pierre-Antoine was also a pro-nazi anti-semite who edited and wrote in the collaboration newspaper 'Je Suis Partout'.

Pierre-Antoine Cousteau was sentenced to death at the end of WWII..

Jacques-Yves Cousteau intervened to change the sentence into life imprisonment.

Talk about backing the wrong horse!

[RainyDay]

Joe Zawinul. The year I co-produced the UC Jazz Festival, I was very proud of how I didn't bother the "talent" except when they needed something and I didn't go out of my way to engage folks in conversation unless it was clear they wanted to chat with me. Perfect example, Mingus. After his set he sort of lurked in the wings in the shadows and he never talked to anyone. The man never cracked a smile. I always nodded to him and sort of kept going.

But I was mad for Weather Report and was hoping to say hello to Zawinul. What a mistake that was. WR hadn't showed up for their sound check and midafternoon a huge van had dropped off more electronic gear than I'd ever seen in my life. When WR finally showed up, I went backstage where Zawinul was tinkering with a keyboard. I walked up to him and introduced myself and told him how much I enjoyed his work. He never said a word to me but gave me the iciest stare. It was not pleasant. I excused myself and went down front. Next thing I knew, all of the UC staff had been kicked out from backstage except the techies. Real diva bullshit. I had hoped to say hello to Wayne Shorter who had been kind enough to return a phone call to me when a mutual friend had put me in touch with him about the gig. So we all watched the show from the audience. It was a fine performance but a lot of silly drama. Except for Shorter who was truly very nice to me in the telephone conversatin we'd had earlier.

And due to their being late, we had over an hour gap between acts. They had a mountain of gear to set up and they were late. Fortunately, Jon Hendricks had brought his own trio that opened the festival all three nights. Jon went on and played while the divas got their act together. Saved our bacon because when there were long breaks between sets, the crowd would start throwing stuff.

Edited April 23, 2004 by RainyDay

[Bill Nelson]

RE: Musician Jerks

I don't really let what I read about bad behavior influence me.

However, if I'm a paying member of the audience and I have to endure a

prima donna in full bloom, nastiness to the band, or overt rudeness to the audience -- that 'performance' is gonna color my perception for a long time.

In 1969, at a Buddy Rich gig at the Univ. Rhode Island, guess who

rode the limo while his band took the bus. And guess who couldn't be

bothered sign autographs -- even of a 15-year-old standing in the February chill outside his limo.

But he said,"All right, kid", signed the LP, and zoomed off. That's Buddy for ya.

[Free For All]

I've read bios, heard stories, had personal experiences that should have colored my opinion of certain players but I find myself still listening to most of them. For example, I've struggled with coming to terms with what Rosolino did, but I still listen to his recordings and am awed by his playing. Most of these guys who may be considered jerks had only music to express their inner self- what you hear them playing may be the only real constructive beauty they contributed in their life.

Some were manipulative and opportunistic assholes, some were/are great guys being tormented by inner demons (like Tom Harrell, who shouldn't even be mentioned on this thread).

Look at the "Great Day In Harlem" poster- the majority of those musicians were "dysfunctional" in one way or another, but I'd hate to be without their music. And no, I can't rationalize some of the lame shit they pulled. It's ironic, though, that some of the most extreme "characters" also happened to provide us with some of the most memorable music that we still crave to this day.

Having been on the road, I realize that many times someone catches you in a weak moment, and you can't be at your best 24/7. I try to remember that, it helps to understand a negative experience.

There are so many stories of jazz musicians who can't "function" in society- I personally know many of them and refuse to become a "co-dependent", but I can't ignore the contribution that these "tortured souls" often make. Great to be with on the stand, a total drag outside the club. I've had to adopt a forgiving persona lest I let these people drive me crazy. That's just part of the gig, though. Being a jazz musician is a hard fucking thing to do- I really try to cut people some slack.

Now someone who's high-maintenance and can't play, well that's a whole 'nuther thing......

Edited April 23, 2004 by Free For All

[RainyDay]

When I see famous people I don't approach them. I figure they don't want to be bothered and I don't need to be publicly insulted by someone I have the misfortune of admiring. B)

The exception is after a Yoshi's set when one of the band is lurking outside the stage door and I have to walk past him/her to get to the garage, I will pause long enough to tell them I enjoyed the set. If they say anything then I might stop for a quick exchange and then get on to my car.

One last edit, most musicians I have met have been gracious to a fault.

Edited April 23, 2004 by RainyDay

[Alexander]

Important disclaimer: This is not a "jerk" story...

I remember going to see Joe Henderson sometime in the early to mid-90s. After his set, I remember watching him stand in a corner of the room while people milled around. A little boy walked up to him and got his autograph, and Joe graciously signed it. I remember thinking that I should go talk to him (my aunt Suzi knew him, so I even had an "in"), but I didn't think he'd want to be bothered (but if he didn't want to be bothered, why was he hanging around the bar after the set?), so I didn't talk to him. And now he's gone and I regret that I didn't take the time, because I'll never have that opportunity again...

[RainyDay]

I did not "know" Joe but I met him on several occasions and he was so sweet because he always pretended to remember who I was. I have a friend who played with him many years ago and I used to see him play a couple times a year.

[Jazzmoose]

I don't think I'd ever approach a musician after a show, or any "celebrity" in public. I don't know, you just hear so much about how much shit they have to put up with from their "adoring public", I figure give 'em a break. (Of course, if I ever see Organissimo or Quartet Out that goes out the window. At the very least a "what the fuck did you mean by that post, you asshole!" can be expected... )

[Guest akanalog]

one time ron carter played at my hometown's local community center-real small place of course. this is a little new jersey town and i have no idea why ron carter was even there...some jazz musicians live in the town including ts monk and i think john lee and monk puts on a "giants of jazz show" every year at the local middle school which usually gets some big names-i have seen jackie mclean and phil woods, for instance, on the same stage used for my 6th grade assemblies. anyway, carter played with tony reedus and james williams in this small little space for like 20 people maximum and afterwards my friend who is a drummer and was writing a research paper on jazz went up to carter and inquired if he could ask him a few questions about being a jazz musician and carter refused to speak to him at all. he said he didn't have time to speak to him and just blew him off-i think he might have actually said he did not want to be quoted. i could understand if this had been at some big club but it was a totally informal intimate show and no one was rushing off anywhere. the baird community center does not seem like the kind of place where one should act like a prima donna.

also a friend in rhode island went to the newport jazz festival with a friend who was a pianist and they saw les mccann sitting down at a table and the pianist went up to mccann to say how much he liked his music and that he too was a jazz musician and mccann said-"white boy playing jazz? i don't think so." i always thought that was a funny story and don't hold it against mccann. mccann might have been drunk and the pianist friend probably looked like a stoned out college hippie. this story was told to me also, so i cannot verify it personally.

[rockefeller center]

(Of course, if I ever see Organissimo or Quartet Out that goes out the window. At the very least a "what the fuck did you mean by that post, you asshole!" can be expected... )

Hehehehehehe hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

[maren]

anyway, carter played with tony reedus and james williams in this small little space for like 20 people maximum and afterwards my friend who is a drummer and was writing a research paper on jazz went up to carter and inquired if he could ask him a few questions about being a jazz musician and carter refused to speak to him at all. he said he didn't have time to speak to him and just blew him off-i think he might have actually said he did not want to be quoted. i could understand if this had been at some big club but it was a totally informal intimate show and no one was rushing off anywhere. the baird community center does not seem like the kind of place where one should act like a prima donna.

Don't know how long ago this was -- but Ron Carter's wife died in 1999 or 2000 after a long and serious illness -- I think it's a good idea to give these "blowing-off" encounters the benefit of the doubt, especially when it's the only one you have any knowledge of, and there's no abusive language involved -- you never know when someone's wife was just diagnosed with cancer (or they just got ditched by the love of their life, or their teenager is in a psych ward on suicide watch, or their parent just died, or the IRS just put a lien on their house as well as every gig they've booked for the next 3 years, or they're just having a truly horrible day) -- and they just have nothing to spare for their audience after making it to the gig and playing. In general, I haven't heard bad things about Ron Carter.