Any guitar players out there?

[AfricaBrass]

I'm not a jazz guitarist, though I do try sometimes. Mostly I play rock, country, blues. I've been playing for close to 20 years. Usually, I spend a lot of my time at guitar forums.

Anyone out there interested in talking guitars?

[AfricaBrass]

I just read my post and it sounds like a personal ad.

Ooof!

[Joe G]

Well, you know I'm interested in talkin' guitar. B) It's about time, too!

I've dabbled in a lot of styles, too. It was probably the 70's rock that was on the radio and in my Dad's collection that got me started. Then I got into a major bluegrass phase. That music never left me, and I think it's way cool that the popularity of it has increased so much in the last couple of years. That's mostly due to Allison Krauss, and O Brother Where Art Thou, of course. Then I got way into rock and metal as a teenager. Finally outgrew that; I needed somthing with dynamics! Now it's mostly jazz and classical and ethnic and bluegrass and pop and whatever else sounds good.

Who are your favorite players, AB? And what guitar forums do you frequent? I check out the Pat Metheny Group forum often, even though it gets pretty hot in there sometimes...

Edited March 10, 2003 by Joe G

[Jim R]

I'm not quite the guitar nut I used to be, but it will always be a big part of my musical interests. I started playing around the mid-70's, beginning by copying Dicky Betts solos, and before long I was seriously into blues (mostly contemporary electric guitarists of the time- BB, Albert, Freddie, Otis Rush, Duke Robillard, Robert Cray, Hollywood Fats, Robben Ford, Junior Watson, etc). That lasted for a few years, and then I heard Kenny Burrell with Jimmy Smith (At The Organ, Vol. 1). By 1980, I was collecting jazz guitar recordings with a serious passion, learning to play jazz, wheeling and dealing with vintage guitars (which were relatively affordable at the time), networking with other enthusiasts, subscribing to various mags, etc. For a long time, my jazz collection was about 50% jazz guitar. That's changed now, but I still focus on guitar music to some degree.

I pretty much enjoy and prefer all the greats from the 50's/60's era (Kessel, Raney, Farlow, Burrell, Montgomery, Green, etc), but rather than always talking about them, I like to mention personal favorites who get less attention. I'm a big fan of Rene' Thomas (has anybody mentioned the Eddy Louiss Trio recording yet on this site?), Louis Stewart, and Joshua Breakstone, to name just a few.

Edited March 10, 2003 by Jim R

[Joe G]

  I'm a big fan of Rene' Thomas (has anybody mentioned the Eddy Louiss Trio recording yet on this site?), Louis Stewart, and Joshua Breakstone, to name just a few.

It sure didn't take long for someone to tell me something I didn't know. Could you give me just a bit of info on these guys? Breakstone is the only name I've heard, and still I couldn't tell you anything about him.

[AfricaBrass]

I recently picked up a Rene Thomas cd. One in the Jazz in Paris series. It was good. I'd like to hear more.

Joe G,

Thanks for asking. I'm one of those people that seem to dabble in almost every musical style. I'm also a huge bluegrass fan. I even started playing banjo last year. This is my second banjo. I originally bought a cheap one in 1989 and never used it much. My new banjo is a Deering. It is a beautiful instrument. I figured I would buy my last banjo first. I've been practicing and since I was already comfortable fingerpicking, I've progressed quickly.

Here are some of my favorite guitarists:

Jazz - my tastes are pretty similar to Jim R's. Mostly classic 50's and 60's (Burrell, Montgomery, Green, Farlow). I also like some of Pat Martino's Muse recordings. I've never listened to Pat Metheny, but if you have any suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

Country/bluegrass: Clarence White, Jimmy Bryant, Joe Maphis, Buck Owens, Don Rich, Roy Nichols. I could go on all day, I'm sure I left out a bunch.

Blues: Albert King, Freddie King, BB, Earl Hooker, Peter Green, Hubert Sumlin - Heck, I guess my tastes run in line with Jim R. again. I'd also love more suggestions.

Rock: I'll just name bands here. The Beatles, the Byrds, the Grateful Dead (mostly 66-74 period), Moby Grape, Quicksilver Messenger Service, early Pink Floyd. I know that I've left out a bunch.

I used to play in bands, but now I just do recording at home. I write my own music and have a 10 track digital recorder that I'm setting up. I wish I could play jazz. I can play some jazz things, but I'm self taught and I get all messed up when you start talking Berklee kind of stuff.

The main guitar forum I frequent is the Fender forum. It's expensive to go there because it makes me want to buy more guitars.

I'm excited that there are other guitarists here. I look forward to talking about gear and music here. Nice to make your acquaintance!

[Jim R]

Joe, Rene' Thomas was a Belgian guitarist who was particularly influenced by Jimmy Raney. His sound and approach are similar, but with a bit more of an "edge". He was noticed by Sonny Rollins (with whom he recorded on MetroJazz), and eventually worked with Chet Baker, Stan Getz, Sonny Criss, Lucky Thompson and others. His "partner" in europe for many years was Bobby Jaspar. Thomas recorded for Jazzland as a leader in 1960, on an album called "Guitar Groove". This is a classic jazz guitar album, readily available through Fantasy's OJC series. The Eddy Louiss (organ) Trio recording I referred to was from the late 60's, with Kenny Clarke on drums. It was hard to find on LP, and wasn't released on CD until around 1995 by Dreyfus. This is one of THE great organ/guitar/drums recordings. Thomas recorded quite a few sessions (more as a sideman) between the mid-50's and the mid-70's, when he died from a heart attack.

Louis Stewart (1944- )is an Irish guitarist, world class in every respect, a bebopper at heart although he's one of the most versatile players I've ever come across in terms of style and technique. He plays with an effortless confidence, excelling at rhythmic, harmonic and melodic variety. He plays with a rare "momentum" that is similar to Pat Martino and Wes in some ways, and he's always in control... he's a natural leader onstage, and has a knack for bringing out the very best in those he's playing with (he's generous and humble in that sense). He began playing professionally in the 60's, worked with Tubby Hayes, and was noticed by Benny Goodman, who took him on a european tour. At the 1968 Montreux festival, Stewart was named the "outstanding european soloist". He's worked with many of the biggest names in jazz, from George Shearing to Pepper Adams to Stephane Grappelli to J.J. Johnson, but for the most part has been inclined to stay close to home and his family. His most recent projects have been with the German guitarist Heiner Franz, for the Jardis label.

Joshua Breakstone is from the NY/NJ area, and came on the scene around the early to mid-80's (I think he's about my age... in the 45-50 range). After making a name for himself in NY, he recorded a couple of LP's under his own leadership, with Barry Harris and Kenny Barron as sidemen. By the mid-80's, he had a contract with Contemporary, and put out a string of good records. He's also a bebopper, but the great thing about him is that he has a truly distinctive sound and approach. He concentrates on single lines (he was very much influenced by Grant Green, as well as trumpet players like Clilfford Brown and Lee Morgan), but he can also play great chords. He's put out tribute CD's to Monk, Bud Powell, and Wes (and the Ventures, and the Beatles!... haven't heard that one yet). I understand he's a pretty big star in Japan now...

Edited March 10, 2003 by Jim R

[Jim Alfredson]

Joe,

I have one record with Rene Thomas on it. A Lou Bennet organ record. Good stuff. I'll let you borrow it.

[Joe G]

I'll answer AB first:

Don't sweat the Berklee thing. Forums aren't really feasible for the transmission of that kind of info.

Yeah man! Bluegrass. It just makes me feel good to listen to that stuff. A music of the heart, I think. I grew up on Tony Rice, Mark O'Conner, Jerry Douglas and that whole gang. The Newgrassers. But I also had a dose of the stone cold traditional: Flatt & Scruggs, Monroe, Clarence White, etc. It's a healthy scene now. I like Nickel Creek, they are very talented. Especially Chris Thiele. And AK & Union Station is superb. That's cool that you're playing banjo. I used to play mandolin, but I haven't had one for quite some time. For banjo, the obvious guy to mention: Bela Fleck. Sometimes I feel like he runs hot and cold, though. Some of the Flecktones stuff doesn't stand the test of time, but every so often I'll hear something from him that just floors me. I saw him a year ago with Edgar Meyer in support of Perpetual Motion. Great concert and a great album.

As far as the classic jazz guys, I actually had to backtrack to them, coming to jazz out of rock as I did. Naturally, I gravitated to the more modern players: Mclaughlin, Sco, Metheny, Frisell, Henderson. For a fellow guitar nut, the Metheny album I'd recommend is Question and Answer, a trio date with Roy Haynes and Dave Holland. It's fun to hear the guitar played that well. Beyond that, I'm not sure. There's a lot of stuff, and I don't have a clear sense yet of what you might like. Although, Beyond the Missouri Sky, with Charlie Haden is, I think, on par with the John Coltrane & Johnny Hartman album for sheer beauty.

Yes, I'm happy to have found a niche to occupy where we can talk about this stuff.

[Joe G]

Joe, 

     I have one record with Rene Thomas on it.  A Lou Bennet organ record.  Good stuff.  I'll let you borrow it.

Cool, thanks.

Edited March 10, 2003 by Joe G

[Joe G]

Jim R.,

Thanks so much for the informative reply. Those sound like players I need to be checking out. That's the problem with my getting most of my CD's from BMG--I miss out on a lot of stuff. I'll have to borrow that disc from Jim and let you know what I think.

[AfricaBrass]

Joe,

Thanks for the suggestions.

Bela Fleck is a monster player. I've got his Bluegrass Sessions cd. I haven't heard much Flecktones stuff. I remember when they first came out, I saw a video of one their songs and I couldn't get into it, so I haven't given their other stuff much of a chance.

Thanks for the Metheny suggestions. I'll look into them. I dig Haynes and Holland, so I'll look out for Question and Answer. I've seen Beyond the Missouri in the used bins around here. I'll pick that up.

[jmjk]

I'm a guitar player. I can play decent jazz chord solos and do some single-line soloing around pretty conventional changes. I can comp well behind a soloist, but still, I'll never be a true, pure jazz guitarist, though. It's beyond my ability or beyond my commitment (probably both).

I studied at Berklee for 1 1/2 years in the late 1980s, and have studied jazz privately, and I have to say, knowing all your theory and chord scales and all the mechanics is a great feather in one's cap, but it doesn't come close to what one can learn by actually getting together with some other players and just going for it.

As I was reading the other posts in this thread, I noticed that no one here shares the same core influences with me. So, I'll just need to post at the risk of appearing trivial.

My main guitar background is really as a sound-painter. I enjoy playing some blues-based stuff and funk here and there, but what really thrills me are the sonic textures and atmospheres the guitar can create in rock/pop and minimalist formats. I know, this description provides easy armor for a player who sucks, and doesn't know what he/she is doing, but in my case, I'm proud of what I know, and all the jazz theory stuck in my head actually helps with what I do in a rock format---and without playing jazz. I love laying back with open-string arpeggios, upper-structure tensions on simple chords, treated capo, a boatload of effects, weird tunings, etc... To me, creating an atmosphere within a piece of music is as poignant and effective as soloing. Matter of fact, I recoil at the task of having to solo in a conventional way on music that I record or play with others. My soloing sounds stale to me, and therefore, I'm not very inspired to do it!

Some guitarists I admire:

Robert Fripp

Allan Holdsworth

Steve Hackett (1970s Genesis)

Pat Metheny

Andy Summers

David Torn

Kenny Burrell

Joe Pass

Emily Remler

Alex Lifeson (Rush)

Robben Ford

Martin Barre (Jethro Tull)

Adrian Belew

Dave Gregory (XTC)

Charlie Burchill (Simple Minds)

[AfricaBrass]

jmjk,

I have a great deal of respect for those who approach the guitar in a creative manner. I think it's a waste of the guitar's potential not to try to make sound paintings.

Although I didn't mention it, I've had quite a bit of experience playing in a non-traditional manner. I had a band with a another guitarist and we used to use delays and other effects to make it sound like an entire band. It was a kind of Frippertronics thing. I'm a big fan of Brian Eno and I like a lot of the Krautrock groups like Cluster and Neu. If you've seen the Pink Floyd at Pompeii movie, you could picture what we were doing. Half of our playing was working the effects.

I'm also a fan of alternate tunings. I used to use them often, but I found it was a big pain to retune when my band was playing live. In my last band, the other guitarist used alternate tunings all the time. Unfortunately, he never seemed to use the tunings on any songs that came after another. I hated it, I had to actually talk to the audience.

[jmjk]

Yes, AfricaBrass, alternate tunigs are a pain in the neck in a live situation. Of course if one has 6 guitars and a roadie to tune them, it's fine (that's NOT me, though!) Live, I've played some 12 string electrics and acoustics that seem to THINK they'd like to go into an alternate tuning!! Not fun when another band member has to tell jokes to waste time while I tune 12 strings. Repeatedly.

I usually go the treated capo route these days. I bought a few cheap capoes, and cut slots in them with razors, so that, even though I may have the capo in the 5th position, the D string and B string are left in open position and ringing out. I've had some wild results! Each capo has a different "open string" treatment, or in some cases more than one open string, and one can switch without too much troube (sometimes re-tuning is a bitch with these too).

I also like fooling with the E-bow for some nice attackless effects...

Krautrock is a genre that I admire, but from afar. I know some Kraftwerk material, but beyond that, nothing. Thanks for giving me new avenue to explore! Most of my avant rock listening is rooted in electronic synth-based stuff, like Eno, but also including the more conventional like Japan, some experimental Depeche Mode, and film music. Even the sappiest pop, if done well, can be an influence if one digs deeply enough.

[AfricaBrass]

That's a great idea about cutting notches in the capo, jmjk.

I used to use an e-bow often, until a friend borrowed it. Needless to say, I haven't seen either of them in a long time. I'd like to pick up one again. Have you tried the method of using a metal slide and sliding up and down (north to south) over the pickups. It gives an effect similar to an e-bow, but for all the strings.

I spent a lot of time playing 12 strings too (acoustic and electric). It is a pain when the tuning goes sounth on you. My Rickenbacker is a pain to tune up, period. I always seem to snap one of the strings tuning and I end up with an 11 string.

There was a great thread on Krautrock at the BNBB. I don't know if it is still there, but there were some great suggestions. One of my favorite Krautrock bands was a band called Can. I'm mentioning them because you mentioned Japan. David Sylvian did some duet albums with a member of Can named Holger Czukay in the late '80s. If you are interested in exploring Krautrock further, I'd be happy to help you out.

[jmjk]

Thanks, AfricaBrass. I'll call on you if I get stuck in the Krautrock swamps.

I've heard a lot about Can and Neu (I also belong to a Progressive Rock BBS and I read it daily. Those are two band names that come up frequently).

I think I'll start there, and I'll see if that bastard moderator at the BNBB hasn't deleted the Krautrock thread yet.

[AfricaBrass]

Thanks Joe!

I might take the animation out. It's starting to get to me.

[Joe G]

  upper-structure tensions on simple chords, treated capo, a boatload of effects, weird tunings, etc...  To me, creating an atmosphere within a piece of music is as poignant and effective as soloing.  Matter of fact, I recoil at the task of having to solo in a conventional way on music that I record or play with others.  My soloing sounds stale to me, and therefore, I'm not very inspired to do it!

I think your approach is admirable. I've been thinking about ways to take our music beyond "head-solo-solo-head", even though I do usually enjoy soloing and comping. One player who has interested me recently is Avi Bortnick, John Scofield's rhythm guitarist. Killer right hand technique, and works with real-time samples to create really wild sounds. Makes me want to explore that realm more.

Could you give me an example of "upper structure tensions on simple chords"? Do you mean, for instance, a minor 6th over a major triad, something like that? Do you have a method, or just experiment with sounds?

And you mentioned Robert Fripp. Have you checked out the Guitar Craft website? They are teaching some pretty cool stuff, but it seems you have to completely overhaul your approach to fit theirs if you take a retreat. I'm not ready for that.

[Jim Alfredson]

Sounds like you guys need to make up wacked out stories to fill the voids in live situations, like Peter Gabriel used to do with Genesis!

My sister has an mp3 of him telling this really really weird story while the band was tuning up. It's frickin' hilarious!

Watch out, Joe... if we start getting too crazy we won't get played on so-called "jazz" radio stations that play all those horrible vocalists re-hashing tired standards over and over again.

Oh wait... we don't get played on those stations anyway! GO ON!

But I'm not bitter...

[jmjk]

Could you give me an example of "upper structure tensions on simple chords"? Do you mean, for instance, a minor 6th over a major triad, something like that? Do you have a method, or just experiment with sounds?

And you mentioned Robert Fripp. Have you checked out the Guitar Craft website? They are teaching some pretty cool stuff, but it seems you have to completely overhaul your approach to fit theirs if you take a retreat. I'm not ready for that.

Hi Joe-

Sure. I like playing with 9s, 11s and 13s, and all chromatic passing tones in between, like b9, #9, b13, etc...but most of what I do is sound-oriented, and if and when it comes time to write or arrange other parts, then I sit and figure out what's what. But in the beginning, I just go with what sounds nice, and try to position my fingers in places where they should not be---like play a Bbmaj7 chord in 6th position, and move 2 or 3 fingers a note below or above, and see how it sounds...

One thing I like to do is anchor a song's harmony around a single note, or group of notes as pedal point. The melody played or sung over top would tweak this note too. So (off the top of my head) in the key of C for example, if the song progresses around some simple changes like Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 - Bb7 - Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7, if you choose lay heavily on, say, the A note, 10th position, B string, what you end up with is Cmaj (add 13) - Fmaj7 with the 3rd emphasized - Bb7 (maj7) - Dm7 with the 5th emphasized - G9 - and then back to Cmaj7 (add 13). Things get a lot more interesting when the bass plays something other than the root of the chords, so that the harmonic movement is really shot to shit by that point, and it becomes very atonal (or it DOES resolve, but only in terms of the chords adjacent and not to an overall key center). This is a compositional tool I like working with, and it's all aimed at creating an atmosphere, rather than going for what the ear is used to hearing, and progressing from there. With the guitar, it's difficult to pull off without twisting your fingers madly, so I usually end up leaving a note or two out of the fundamental chord, and just focus mostly on the tensions. The bass and the keyboards can cover the other fundmaental pieces of the harmony. All I can say is it works for me!!

Indeed I have seen the Guitar Craft website. Man, that stuff makes me crazy, because there's just SO MUCH I'd like to learn. AND I wanna meet Fripp, too!! It's frustrating because actually registering and attending a seminar is not possible given my current life/lifestyle. It seems to me that not only does one need to overhaul their approach, as you say, but each student needs to get on board with their philosophy in order to succeed. Some of Fripp's little anecdotes are hilarious!! It's definitely intense, and I imagine if I did attend, I'd be so wound up and nervous that I wouldn't be able to play a note, and Bob would send me home!

[Jim Alfredson]

Hey guys! It's the ultimate Guitar Effects stomp-box!!!

Bow Before It!!!!!!!!!

[Joe G]

Jesus! Don't let that thing fall into the wrong hands!

"Soon, I will be able to control the entire universe!! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!

[AfricaBrass]

That is one CRAZY effects setup. I want to know how you take that thing to a gig. I think I'd go see a show just to see that thing in action.

Some people have too much time on their hands.

[jmjk]

That contraption is right up my alley!

Envy, here...