Cecil Taylor Mosaic

[Matthew]

Been on a huge Cecil Taylor binge lately and I have a chance of getting the The Complete Candid Recordings of Cecil Taylor and Buell Neidlinger for about $150.00. So my question is: Is it a set worth getting? I know most of Taylor's Candid stuff is out on cd, so should I just get those or does the Mosaic have a bunch of alternate takes that I need? This set I can get is the lp set, if that makes any difference. Opinions wanted. Thanks.

[Alfred]

The price is fair as long as the LP's are in very good condition.

Keep in mind that "New York City R&B" will be re-released very soon in the US (May 18th). I'm not sure but almost every material is available on CD.

[AmirBagachelles]

For the sake of enjoyment, I would avoid any vinyl set w/ a lot of alternate takes, particularly given the way in which Mosaic sequences material in recording chronological order. I don't know the content of the CT Mosaic set though.

[sidewinder]

I would recommend the vinyl set of this if it's in good condition. $150 is a very fair price - I've seen it go for much more.

From my recollection, I don't think there's anything in this set which wasn't in the individual Candid CD releases of 'Jumpin Pumpkins', 'World Of' etc

[Chuck Nessa]

I believe the Mosaic set has one take of Air (tk 1) not on the other cds. I am a Cecil freak, was broke when the Mosaic was available and am happy with the Candid cds.

[king ubu]

I believe the Mosaic set has one take of Air (tk 1) not on the other cds. I am a Cecil freak, was broke when the Mosaic was available and am happy with the Candid cds.

I also think so, but neither do I have the set. I have those five Candid CDs, too.

The music's good, some of it great, all of it worth hearing. Shepp's very first record dates, different groups (p-b-d-trio, quartet with Shepp added, some large band stuff) make things interesting, too.

ubu

[DrJ]

I have the CD version of the set, bought it used for I think about $100 a few years back - showing its age a bit remastering wise, but more than listenable and the music is excellent. I'd say go for that Mosaic LP box.

[JSngry]

I was pissed when I realized that "complete" didn't really mean COMPLETE with this set, and intentionally so. About that, I am still ambivalent.

[king ubu]

I was pissed when I realized that "complete" didn't really mean COMPLETE with this set, and intentionally so. About that, I am still ambivalent.

So this would mean there's some tracks missing from the Mosaic, but the Mosaic also has one track not reissued elsewhere?

ubu

[JohnS]

The music is some of the most exciting piano jazz I've heard so I'd say it's essential. However I'd recommend settling for the five Candid cds. Three are listed as still available in the UK.

[jazzbo]

UNLESS vinyl is your thing and all that, and that is perfectly understandable; in my brief experience with vinyl (the CBS Mingus set) theirs is da bomb!

I really love the music on this Taylor set, I have the cd version, and I've heard a few of the Candid cds, and either is a good way to go, the lps would be great for a vinyl lover as well. . . . The music is worth having indeed.

[Claude]

For comparision with the individual CD releases, here is the tracklist of the Mosaic CD set. Maybe someone can add the title of track 1 from CD1.

Cecil Taylor & Buell Neidlinger - The Complete Candid Recordings of Cecil Taylor and Buell Neidlinger

Mosaic 127

USA, NYC, Nola's Penthouse Studios 10/12/60 10/13/60 1/9/61 1/10/61

Archie Shepp-ts

Cecil Taylor-p

Buell Neidlinger-b

Dennis Charles-d

Sunny Murray-d

Steve Lacy-ss

Charles Davis-bs

Clark Terry-tp

Roswell Rudd-tb

Billy Higgins-d,tympani

CD1:

1. (missing information)

2. Air (take 5)

3. Number One (take 1)

4. Number One (take 3)

5. This Nearly Was Mine

6. Air (take 9)

CD2:

1. E.B. (take 2)

2. Lazy Afternoon (take 1)

3. Air (take 21)

4. Air (take 28)

5. Air (take 29)

6. Port Of Call (take 2)

7. Port Of Call (take 3)

CD3:

1. Davis (take 1)

2. Davis (take 3)

3. O.P. (take 1)

4. Cell Walk for Celeste (take 1)

5. Cell Walk for Celeste (take 3)

6. Cell Walk for Celeste (take 8)

7. I Forgot (take 1)

8. Section C (take 1)

CD4:

1. Jumpin' Punkins (take 4)

2. Things Ain't What They Used to Be (take 1)

3. Things Ain't What They Used to Be (take 3)

4. Jumpin' Punkins (take 6)

5. Cindy's Main Mood (take 1)

Jumpin' Punkins (take 5) is missing from the Mosaic set.

[JSngry]

I was pissed when I realized that "complete" didn't really mean COMPLETE with this set, and intentionally so. About that, I am still ambivalent.

So this would mean there's some tracks missing from the Mosaic, but the Mosaic also has one track not reissued elsewhere?

ubu

What it means is that there are a fair number of alternate takes that Cuscuna decided not include because he (according to his response to a letter that I wrote in protest) felt that they were "substandard". FULL takes, if I remember correctly.

Perhaps. Producer's perogative, protecting the legacy, and all that. BUT - I bought a set of incredibly important music called "Complete" that boasted of the extraordinary amount of previously unissued material. To find out that it was less than complete upset me a little bit. If it was a matter of false starts, or if it was somebody and/or some session a bit less "important", I'd have been less bugged. But it wasn't.

But it's cool. I still buy their shit every once in a while.

[JohnS]

Thanks Claude, that's very useful.

I also have the following on two Marty Krystal discs that look as though they should belong to the Candid sessions but no precise dates are listed. Locations are given for the first two, 355 1/2 Bowery NYC and 81 2nd Ave NYC respectively.

Section C (Taylor, Shepp, Neidlinger, and Charles)

Davis (Neidlinger and Shepp)

PO (Taylor, Neidlinger and Charles)

[JohnS]

Out of curiosity I checked the Candid cds against Claude's Mosaic listing. Both sets have 26 tracks but the Candid's miss one take of Air and (missing information). They include another take of OP and Jumpin' Punkins. Not all the Candid liners give take numbers and where there are, there are some discrepancies. They could also include the odd duplicate track but timings don't indicate it.

Maybe this will be useful to someone.

[brownie]

For comparision with the individual CD releases, here is the tracklist of the Mosaic CD set. Maybe someone can add the title of track 1 from CD1.

I have the Mosaic LP set.

It starts with:

Side 1, track 1 'Air' (take 5).

Nothing before that.

The lined noted list the same tracks for the LP and the CD sets.

[porcy62]

I don't have the Taylor mosaic set, BUT, IMO the candid jazz reissues are usually quite poor for sound quality, (I don't think they did any serious remastering), the comparison A/B I did with Mingus candid cd and mosaic Lp box set pushes me to suggest the Lp, if in good condition, and if you really care about the sound quality.

BTW in the old BNBB someone told me that the Mingus mosaic cd sound better than candid, better mastering or source tapes, I don't remember.

[Claude]

Doesn't the Mingus Mosaic set use mono tapes, whereas the Candid CD reissues are stereo?

[jazzbo]

On one session only, I believe, "Mingus Presents Mingus."

[porcy62]

I don't remember, I did the A/B test in a friend's house. I still looking for a near mint Mosaic Lp set on Ebay since then!!!

Edited April 15, 2004 by porcy62

[brownie]

I'm more than happy with the sound on the original Candid albums. Beautifully produced, beautifully packaged and beautifully recorded.

[porcy62]

Are you talkin of original Lps or Cd reissues?

[brownie]

I'm talking about Candid originals. I avoid the Candid CD reissues except when they have previously unissued material.

And I'm with Monsieur Sangrey, shame on Mosaic for not being true to their word and providing non-complete 'Complete' boxes...

[porcy62]

That's what I was talkin about, I'm sorry (for myself!!) but I haven't any candid originals, and the sound quality of cd are poor, it's a pity, or a shame, that nobody took this beatiful catalog (jazz and blues) to new life, sonically I mean.

I would appreciate a serious program of remastering or audiophile vinyl reissuing.

BTW, the so called audiophile labels still print the 1000th edition of Kind of Blue on Lp, 120 grams Lp, 180 grams Lp, 200 grams Lp, 45rpm 180grams Lp.....!!!

[Matthew]

Thanks for all the great information everyone! I'm still wavering about getting tje lp Mosaic. OTOH, it is lp, so from what Im reading, the sound will be a lot better than the cds. OTOH, there are so many alternate takes, which, by-and-large I do not enjoy. Decisions, decisions.