Teddy Charles

[garthsj]

Yes Late, Bob Prince did several really interesting albums in the "early" avant-garde vein .. most notably "Events And N.Y. Export: Op Jazz" (RCA 2435), and another "Jazz Ballets From Broadway" (Warner 1240). These are really quite "out there" in jazz terms ....

Garth ...

AND I AM GOING TO COPYRIGHT "'EARLY' AVANT-GARDE" ...

[Late]

Yes Late, Bob Prince did several really interesting albums in the "early" avant-garde vein .. most notably "Events And N.Y. Export: Op Jazz" (RCA 2435), and another "Jazz Ballets From Broadway" (Warner 1240). These are really quite "out there" in jazz terms ....

Garth ...

AND I AM GOING TO COPYRIGHT "'EARLY' AVANT-GARDE" ...

The "Early" Avant-Garde

© Garth

... and I'm guessing those B. Prince titles you list aren't on compact disc?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Having read Allen's manuscript and heard him give a presentation on the subject, I'll say that there is a LOT of great music that is under the radar of most present-day fans. Hardly anyone plays this stuff on the radio - it doesn't have "hit" quality, ya can't dance to it, etc. But Allen's work just reinforces the quantity of it all. Those of us reading this thread are "in the know" but the marvelous innovations of that period have been largely ignored in the history books (and in the music classrooms, and even by the musicians themselves). And because there was so much variety in there, even when some coverage is attempted, it doesn't do this stuff justice. There are plenty of things that even Allen could write TWICE as much about.

A number of these kinds of things figure into my own research - the Lenox School of Jazz, Orchestra USA, Gigi Gryce, etc. - there are aspects of the classical/jazz connection and the pursuit of musical innovation. The artists we're talking about were not content simply to replay the same chord changes in a head-solos-head arrangement (melody in unison, of course). They were seeking "What's New" - not coincidentally, the title of a Columbia album split between Teo Macero and Bob Prince. Teo reissued his half and you can still get it on cdbaby, but I don't believe the Prince half has ever seen CD issue.

As I mentioned in a recent discussion of Third Stream music elsewhere, I attended a concert at Manhattan School of Music in November where a brand new ensemble debuted - the MSM Chamber Jazz Ensemble. They played Poem For Brass (J.J. Johnson); Hi-Fly (Randy Weston, arr. Cecil Bridgewater); Abstractions (Gunther Schuller); All About Rosie (George Russell). The group combines classical and jazz students and is dedicated to the performance of "classic" Third Stream music as well as NEW music in that same vein. I found this most encouraging.

Mike

[garthsj]

Thanks Mike for reminding me of "Whats New" (Columbia 842) ... that album went early in my LP sale, and I had totally forgotten about it .. it could easily be paired with "Something New, Something Blue" ... to make a wonderful remastered CD! Maybe the folks at the Collectables label could be persuaded, as they do some "strange" reissues from the Columbia catalog. I wonder if TEO Macero would go for it.

[AllenLowe]

I actually do mention a lot of the west coasters, as well as Brubeck's Octet, all the things Mike mentioned, etc. I got a bid sidetracked on the book, as it was rejected by Oxford and was quite a bad experience for me (one of the negative reviewers mentioned that he is in the book; I don't know who this was but I considered this a gross conflict of interest and got into a big battle with the than-editor about it) - at any rate I put it down for a few years, but am planning on getting back into it, as I think this is one of the most interesting periods in jazz (if not THE most interesting) - Mike's research on the Lennox School was particularly helpful, as well as the one bootleg recording that comes from that event - and I do believe I have a publisher - it might be a good thing, at some point, for me to put together a discography, as well (in my spare time, as they say) -

[mikeweil]

A fun (and swinging) album by Teddy Charles is the Bethlehem 'On Campus' date with Zoot Sims, Sam Most, Dave McKenna, Jimmy Raney, Bill Crow and Ed Shaughnessy.

Got me this one earlier this month as Fresh Sound did a limited re-pressing - more of the jam session type, thus not as exciting as his more arranged projects, but still very nice and better than most impromptu performances.

Edited December 8, 2004 by mikeweil

[garthsj]

I got a bid sidetracked on the book, as it was rejected by Oxford and was quite a bad experience for me (one of the negative reviewers mentioned that he is in the book; I don't know who this was but I considered this a gross conflict of interest and got into a big battle with the than-editor about it) -

Allen,

Welcome to the wide, wonderful, wacky, weird, world of publishing ... !!!

I once had a manuscript rejected because one out of four outside reviewers did not like the fact that I did not take an "ideological stance " with which he could identify! .... I quickly found another publisher .... so don't give up hope. The subject matter sounds fascinating, and given much of the garbage that does get printed these days in the name of jazz scholarship (Leslie Gourse, et. al.), your book appears to make a genuine contribution to the field. Hang in there, as I am eager to read it someday soon.

Garth.

[AllenLowe]

Thanks for the words of encouragement - I think I'm just a small press kind of guy - as I used to say, I've been rejected by some of the most prestigious publishers in the world - I find that my writing occupies a middle world - not academic enough for the academics (whom I've grown to really really really dislike), not pop enough for the trade presses - I had one U Press turn down my rock and roll history as not passing political muster. U of Illinois turned down the same book with a viciously negative review by Burton Peretti (I had some inside info). To have a music book rejected by Peretti is like having Hitler reject you for a humanitarian award -

[Larry Kart]

Got my fingers crossed that Allen's book comes out. Fascinating subject and the right author. Of many not figures mentioned yet, a guy who's always intrigued me is composer Duane Tatro. As different as they are in obvious ways, I hear a kinship with Monk in the way Tatro's pieces almost puritantically feed on their oblique core material until it's all magically used up. I spoke to Tatro once in the 1980s -- he lives (or lived, think he might be gone now) in Van Nuys, Ca., did a lot of TV scoring at one time. A very nice guy who was pleased to hear that the music on "Jazz for Moderns" was fondly remembered, he said he'd send me a tape of the premiere performance a 12-tone guitar concerto he wrote for Howard Roberts, but it never arrived.

[Chuck Nessa]

The Lowe book sounds wonderful - probably 18 readers waiting for a book like this (me included) and the rest go to libraries. I do not mean this as a slam in any way - just a reflection of the times. Damn, I hope it happens.

No one has responded to my "lack of interest" in Charles as a player. I stated I had no interest in his playing but thought he was a good organizer. If you can point me to some good/great playing, let me know.

[ghost of miles]

Paging: David (Ghost of Miles) ~ sounds like another potential show? The "early" avant-garde?

Thanks for those posts Allen and Garth.

OK ... I don't know Bob Prince. What should I be looking for? I'm guessing he's known more as an arranger/composer than improviser?

Teddy Charles is on tap for sometime next year. I'm very committed to playing this kind of material--and I think garth is the DJ I was trying to remember elsewhere who had mentioned playing this music as well. I used to work it into my mixes at my old WFHB show quite a lot, and had a similarly positive response. We just had a caller the other day saying very nice things about the Mingus/Carisi "Jazz Workshops Pt. 2" show... and one of the things he said was that you hardly ever hear this music on the radio. Sadly true.

Allen, I'll buy your 1950s book right out of the gate--I've been eager to read it ever since learning of it in the author bio for THAT DEVILIN' TUNE.

[Larry Kart]

Don't have everything Charles recorded (far from it) and don't have fresh in my mind everything of his I do have, but with the possible exception of his solo on "You Go To My Head" (on "The Teddy Charles Tentet" album), the only Charles solo work that really works for me is on that circa 1957 Jubilee album "Three For Duke" -- an all-Ellington program, with Oscar Pettiford and Hall Overton (often in a very Monkish vein and pretty effectively so). It's certainly the only Charles I know where you could say (or I could say) he sounds fairly relaxed -- although "fairly relaxed," given his conception, was all you'd want or expect from him; there was a lot of seemingly necessary tension built into his music. BTW, while influence probably wasn't involved, Charles seems to me like a point on the line that led to Walt Dickerson. Also, BTW, I guess I'm safe in praising "Three For Duke" because I may be one of maybe ten people on the planet who owns a copy (and mine, sadly, is not in very good shape).

[garthsj]

Also, BTW, I guess I'm safe in praising "Three For Duke" because I may be one of maybe ten people on the planet who owns a copy (and mine, sadly, is not in very good shape).

I promised that I would never again say, "I used to have a copy" ... so I won't...

I think that ALL Jubilee albums came out of their sealed covers sounding like they were "pre-owned" .... for years I tried to find a clean copy of "Fat Jazz" with Jackie McLean ... remastering can only improve every Jubilee recording ....

Chuck, I agree that Teddy Charles was not the most "swinging" vibes player, but in his younger days, when he was still using his real name, Theodore Cohen, he did some nice things with Buddy DeFranco on Capitol .. I am sure that you have those sides in your collection ...

Back in April in this thread I pointed out that he was a great teacher of the "four mallet technique" to other vibists ...

Maybe Allen can give us the benefit of a preview of his manuscript and tell us how he assesses Teddy Charles's overall contribution ... I am very eager to hear this.

[brownie]

Also, BTW, I guess I'm safe in praising "Three For Duke" because I may be one of maybe ten people on the planet who owns a copy (and mine, sadly, is not in very good shape).

I promised that I would never again say, "I used to have a copy" ... so I won't...

Should do the same about the albums I still have. And that includes that 'Three For Duke'. My copy is not in top shape either.

But my copy of the 'Prestige Jazz Quartet' album - Clifford Thornton mentioned that one earlier - is still in mint condition even though I played this Prestige LP very often. It was my introduction to Teddy Charles. I still enjoy this. Charles may be a nervous vibraphonist but his playing on that one was nothing short of brillant!

[AllenLowe]

I agree with the various assessments of Charles' playing as being good but not great - I tend to admire him more as a bandleader, and do like his work with Hall Overton, another figure deserving of wider recognition (as Downbeat likes to say) -

sad to say I have 2 copies of that trio record about Duke, and they both sound like crud, indicating that this was a pressing problem, so unless their master tapes are somewhere we're out of luck. I honestly am just starting to work on the book again after ignoring it for about 2 years (I just got tired of rejection) - I do mention Tatro, as I recall, and also have a bit about others like Andre Hodeir. One of the most interesting things I found out while researching came from Teo Macero, who told me about concerts held in the 1950s that were collaborations between Macero and others and Varese - also, I'm convinced that Gil Melle is an important and under-rated figure, as one of the first to use synths (in the early 1960s as I recall), and one of the few of that generation to really understand, in the 1960s, the concept of free improvisation. I had some good conversations with Gil, who just died recently. I have to look through the ms again to get more specific, but, as I've said, I think the 1950s may be the most important era in terms of jazz facing the futre and coming to grips with its own modernist possibilities -

[Late]

Interesting that you mention Andre Hodeir. I was just listening to some of the arrangements he did for a Bobby Jaspar session on Vogue. The composition "Paradoxe" sounds like something Mingus would have liked to have his name attached to. No tonal center, but still swinging. Nat Peck, who I believe was an American expatriate in Paris, is on that session — a fine player. It seems his main horn is the trombone, but he also plays alto horn and trumpet.

I don't have any of the Prestige Jazz Quartet stuff ... time to change that ...

[brownie]

Interesting that you mention Andre Hodeir. I was just listening to some of the arrangements he did for a Bobby Jaspar session on Vogue. The composition "Paradoxe" sounds like something Mingus would have liked to have his name attached to. No tonal center, but still swinging. Nat Peck, who I believe was an American expatriate in Paris, is on that session — a fine player. It seems his main horn is the trombone, but he also plays alto horn and trumpet.

'Paradoxe' is one of Andre Hodeir's most original composition.

It always seemed strange to me that the excellent album he recorded in New York for Savoy 'American Jazzmen Play Andre Hodeir's 'Essais'' was never reissued by the various companies that owned the Savoy catalogue. Lineup was Donald Byrd, Idrees Sulieman, Frank Rehak, Hal McKusick, Bobby Jaspar, Jay Cameron, Eddie Costa, George Duvivier, Bobby Donaldson plus Annie Ross!

Andre Hodeir has written arrangements for the Martial Solal big band in recent years.

He'll turn 84 next month. Heard him on a radio show recently when he discussed jazz arrangements in his usual clever way.

As for Nat Peck, his main instrument is trombone.

[sidewinder]

Nat Peck, who I believe was an American expatriate in Paris, is on that session — a fine player. It seems his main horn is the trombone, but he also plays alto horn and trumpet.

Stalwart of the Clarke/Boland Big Band and, I believe, in Glen Miller's last big band up to his death. Stayed in Europe after the war. Recently interviewed by BBC radio about his time with Miller.

Edited December 9, 2004 by sidewinder

[ghost of miles]

Paging: David (Ghost of Miles) ~ sounds like another potential show? The "early" avant-garde?

←

Late,

I've begun to work on the Teddy Charles program--it's slated for 7/23 broadcast.

[Tom 1960]

I just purchased the 'Teo' album recently and it introduced me to the playing of Teddy Charles. Really great album. Besides those already mentioned, does anyone have any thoughts on this release?

[(BB)]

Thanks for bringing this thread up, most every side mentioned here that I have is the stuff that makes my musical heart go pitter-pat. The stuff mentioned here that i don't have is about to go on a list.

Sorry I can't help with any info on COOLIN', athough it cerainly does look nice on paper.

[jazzbo]

Coolin' is a nice solid date. I've had several copies over the years. . . Lost one, and replaced it lately from www.dustygroove.com Some nice Sulieman!

[king ubu]

Seing this thread back up, a note to Mike, just to say I got "A Word from Bird" (Koch reissue) in the meantime and it's indeed excellent.

That "Coolin'" looks fine, but Jenkins is an artist I never liked that much, not exactly that full of ideas, it seems to me... I'd like to hear more Sulieman, though, that's for sure!

[montg]

There was an Atlantic Jazz reissue of the Tente LP which includes three bonus tracks, # 90983-2.

I find Charles to be one of the most original of all jazz vibists, and can recommend any of his albums. The Original Jazz Classics CDs partly overlap, but swing like mad - his take on Third Stream Jazz had a lot more zest! That session with Shorty Rogers and Shelly Manne is a killer!

This here, BTW, was the cover of his other Atlantic LP:

up....I've been listening to the Shelly Manne/Shorty Rogers session. WOW Fantastic music. It's hard to avoid comparing this, at least superficially, with some Hutcherson recordings made 10-15 years later. The Charles music sounds amazingly contemporary, elements of modal jazz, atonality. And Manne manages to swing like mad.

Edited August 24, 2007 by montg

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, Collaboration West is quite good.

Evolution is another one that's ahead of its time.