Teddy Charles

[Late]

Some artists just keep slipping under your radar. You see their names in the rack (or online), and then, you don't know why, you just pass them by. Until last week, Teddy Charles was an artist of such a fate for me. I always knew I should have some Charles in my collection, and now I'm glad I do! As it relates to my current fascination with the work of George Russell, I scooped up this one a few days ago:

I generally avoid reissues on Collectables, but this one isn't so bad. The remastering is fine if not excellent, and the music ... is great! Just look at the (unique) line-up:

Peter Urban: trumpet

Gigi Gryce: alto saxophone

J.R. Monterose: tenor saxophone

George Barrow or Sol Schlinger: baritone saxophone

Don Butterfield: tuba

Teddy Charles: vibraharp

Jimmy Raney: guitar

Mal Waldron: piano

Teddy Kotick: bass

Joe Harris: drums

I don't know why, but I often love recordings with bands that are 8-10 in size. Not authentic big bands with "sections," but groups with augmented frontlines and "rhythm" sections.

At any rate, would like to hear what you all think of this one, as well as read any suggestions/recommendations for more Charles work. (I did a search before posting, and it looks like the MOMA concert on Fresh Sounds, with Bookers Ervin & Little, comes highly recommended, as does the as-of-yet-unissued-on-compact-disc Russian Music recording on United Artists.)

[stevebop]

Russia Goes Jazz on United Artists features, collectively, Teddy Charles; Jimmy Giuffre; Jim Hall; Hank Jones; Pepper Adams; Zoot Sims; Jimmy Raney; Eric Dolphy; Teddy Kotick; Howard McGhee; Osie Johnson, Jerome richardson, others...

The tunes are:

Schherazade Blue (Korsakoff )

Lullaby of the Firebird (Stravinsky)

Love of Three Oranges March (Prokofieff)

Borodin Bossa Nova

Dance Arabe (Tchaikowsky)

Lullaby Russe (Khachaturian)

Etude (Prokofieff)

Princess Schherazade

Also, don't overlook his Prestige dates from the 1950s, Coolin, new Directions, Collaboration West and Evolution.

You'll find the likes of Idrees Sulieman, Mal Waldron, Jimmy Raney, Shorty Rogers, Jimmy Giuffre, Shelly Manne, JR Monterose.

They're all available on Fantasy OJC Series

Enjoy!

[danasgoodstuff]

He did a v. nice "Nature Boy", what album was that...?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Nature Boy is on the 1955 Miles album "Blue Moods" on Debut.

For all such TC questions, please see the discography by Noal Cohen at

www.JazzDiscography.com

I had the pleasure of seeing TC almost exactly a year ago in a trio with Perry Robinson and Ed Schuller. Also spent some time hanging out with him (and schlepping his vibes).

The Tentet stuff is set for a rare performance at the Springsville festival in Los Angeles at the end of May.

Mike

[Pete C]

"Sounds of the Inner City," released as co-led by Booker Ervin & Booker little is actually a Charles date.

Edit: oh, I see it's been mentioned. I was unaware of the Fresh Sounds release. I can recommend the music wholeheartedly.

This stuff is brilliant third-streamy early avant:

Edited April 13, 2004 by Pete C

[danasgoodstuff]

MF,

Yes, "Nature Boy" is on Miles' Blue Moods album, and Teddy Charles is on that album. The version I was thinking of is actually on the Collectables album pictured above, originally on Atlantic. Perhaps my question was too ambiguitous... Oh well, many good version of this tune, with and without vibes.

[garthsj]

Some artists just keep slipping under your radar. You see their names in the rack (or online), and then, you don't know why, you just pass them by. Until last week, Teddy Charles was an artist of such a fate for me. I always knew I should have some Charles in my collection, and now I'm glad I do! As it relates to my current fascination with the work of George Russell, I scooped up this one a few days ago:

I generally avoid reissues on Collectables, but this one isn't so bad. The remastering is fine if not excellent, and the music ... is great! Just look at the (unique) line-up:

Peter Urban: trumpet

Gigi Gryce: alto saxophone

J.R. Monterose: tenor saxophone

George Barrow or Sol Schlinger: baritone saxophone

Don Butterfield: tuba

Teddy Charles: vibraharp

Jimmy Raney: guitar

Mal Waldron: piano

Teddy Kotick: bass

Joe Harris: drums

I don't know why, but I often love recordings with bands that are 8-10 in size. Not authentic big bands with "sections," but groups with augmented frontlines and "rhythm" sections.

At any rate, would like to hear what you all think of this one, as well as read any suggestions/recommendations for more Charles work. (I did a search before posting, and it looks like the MOMA concert on Fresh Sounds, with Bookers Ervin & Little, comes highly recommended, as does the as-of-yet-unissued-on-compact-disc Russian Music recording on United Artists.)

I assume you know that "Peter Urban" is a pseudonym for trumpeter Art Farmer. The other Atlantic Album, "A Word From Bird" (as Mike Fitzgerald pointed out) is also very good. I agree that we need to pay more attention to these early "avant-gardists," like Charles, Shorty Rogers, Jimmy Giuffre, Hal Overton, Bob Prince, George Russell, etc. There is some very interesting music to be discovered there.

[Late]

I assume you know that "Peter Urban" is a pseudonym for trumpeter Art Farmer.

Garth,

Strange that you point that out — when listening to the album, I was thinking "Art Farmer's cookin'!" And then, when I made this post, I thought, "Jeez, I've never heard of Peter Urban."

Yes, great version of "Nature Boy" on this one. I'm going to have to dig into those OJC's. Ka-ching.

[clifford_thornton]

That Tentet is really friggin' good. I didn't know that was Art Farmer, though...

I really dig the Prestige Jazz Quartet -- they did a record on their own, self-titled (Mal Waldron is in full force here), as well as backing Teo Macero on a set of standards (apparently quirky as hell, too) called, appropriately enough, "Teo". Way better than the MJQ, natch'.

There's a really cool little record with Giuffre, Charles a.o. called "Evolution" on Prestige... There's one track, maybe the first one, that sounds uncanilly like some of Don Cherry's mid-60s group writing. Very strange.

Teddy Charles is often spoken in my house. Well, apartment.

[mikeweil]

There was an Atlantic Jazz reissue of the Tente LP which includes three bonus tracks, # 90983-2.

I find Charles to be one of the most original of all jazz vibists, and can recommend any of his albums. The Original Jazz Classics CDs partly overlap, but swing like mad - his take on Third Stream Jazz had a lot more zest! That session with Shorty Rogers and Shelly Manne is a killer!

This here, BTW, was the cover of his other Atlantic LP:

[Joe]

Also did some production work for Prestige in the 50's -- if I remember correctly, Trane's DAKAR was a Charles date.

Edited April 13, 2004 by Joe

[Pete C]

Also did some production work for Prestige in the 50's -- if I remember correctly, Trane's DAKAR was a Charles date.

He penned the title tune, and to my ears it sounds like early Sun Ra.

[king ubu]

I'm pretty thin on Charles. I have half of the "Word from Bird" Atlantic LP pictured above on the Mingus Atlantic box - do I need to have the CD, too? What's there besides the rather muted date with Mingus?

Then I have Charles' Bethlehem "Salute to Hamp", and I do like that one very much! Art Farmer's there, as is Zoot, if I remember right, and some other great musicians.

ubu

[garthsj]

Theodore Charles Cohen (AKA Teddy Charles) is a jazz force that really needs to be reassessed. I first encountered him on an early Buddy DeFranco date (still under his own name), and have enjoyed his music ever since. He can play in a variety of modes ... from swing to avant-garde ... but his "experimental" stuff from the 1950s is still as fresh as the day it was issued. What a pity that particular genre has been so neglected, at least up until now. I hate to seem like the proverbial "old fart" here, but it gives me enormous pleasure to see "younger" fans like those on this board discover this stuff anew.

BTW, Teddy Charles "taught" the four-mallet technique on the vibes to Julus Gubenko (AKA Terry Gibbs), Don Elliott, Tito Puente, and Warren Chaisson. Besides being an A&R man of some note, he was also a charter boat captain for many years. I have read interviews with him where it is clear that he enjoyed the ocean as much as his music.... AND, I hope to get to hear him at the upcoming "Springsville" Jazz Weekend in L.A. in late May.

[Joe]

The Charles Prestige dates from the early 50's indeed anticipate several developments in jazz that would not be accepted, if they ever were, in the mainstream until the end of the decade and into the 60's. For instance, COLLABORATION WEST has some early "modal" structures on it -- "Margo" is a lovely ballad -- and either "Further Out" or "Etudiez le Cahier" is a serial composition. The important figure in the background of this record is California composer / educator Wesley La Violette, whose other pupils included Jimmy Giuffre and Martin Denny.

Charles could also flat-out blow, as the Bethlehem date or the date with the two Bookers (Ervin and LIttle) proves. Check him out, too, on this session (with Sonny Clark, Frank Morgan, and Larance Marable):

[mikeweil]

I'm pretty thin on Charles. I have half of the "Word from Bird" Atlantic LP pictured above on the Mingus Atlantic box - do I need to have the CD, too? What's there besides the rather muted date with Mingus?

Ubu, if you dig the George Russell Jazz Workshop, you'll flip over the Atlantic Tentet album.

I will remedy that situation you're in at the next occasion

[brownie]

The two Atlantic albums by Teddy Charles are magnificient. So is the 'Russia Goes Jazz' UA record that still has not been reissued. A fun (and swinging) album by Teddy Charles is the Bethlehem 'On Campus' date with Zoot Sims, Sam Most, Dave McKenna, Jimmy Raney, Bill Crow and Ed Shaughnessy.

That Prestige Jazz Quartet album (with Mal Waldron) has also been a favorite LP for years. Too bad the PJQ did not record more...

[king ubu]

I'm pretty thin on Charles. I have half of the "Word from Bird" Atlantic LP pictured above on the Mingus Atlantic box - do I need to have the CD, too? What's there besides the rather muted date with Mingus?

Ubu, if you dig the George Russell Jazz Workshop, you'll flip over the Atlantic Tentet album.

I will remedy that situation you're in at the next occasion

Cool! Looking forward!

ubu

[Larry Kart]

I'm very fond of the (in my case, pretty beat up) circa 1957 Jubilee LP "Three For Duke," with Charles, Hall Overton, and Oscar Pettiford playing Ellington material. Could be something that Fresh Sounds will get around to one day.

[mikeweil]

I'm very fond of the (in my case, pretty beat up) circa 1957 Jubilee LP "Three For Duke," with Charles, Hall Overton, and Oscar Pettiford playing Ellington material. Could be something that Fresh Sounds will get around to one day.

Fresh Sound?! Michael Cuscuna should take care of this one!!! (Jubilee belonging to the Roulette group, which EMI in London controls.)

[Chuck Nessa]

From what I have seen (or heard) Mister Charles is much brighter than his playing. I mean he never "got to me" as an instrumentalist, but his "projects" do.

I did not play for a good reason.

[AllenLowe]

I have a book in mansucript on jazz of the 1950s in which I talk a fair amount about Charles, as well as Hall Overton - I'm hoping to get this out in about a year or so - I think Charles in one of a large group of 1950s avant gardists who rarely get enough credit - partly for some Crow Jim reasons, but also because the course they charted was not much followed by the 1960s avant garde - it was a little bit more "academic" and not as blues-based, but still full of great possibilities, many of which were realized. It is very interesting to look at this group - Charles, Overton, Teo Macero, Gil Melle, John La Porta, Gil Evans, Bob Brookmeyer, John Carisis, Paul Bley, Mingus, George Russell - as well as some of the Kenton arrangers like Graettinger and even Johnny Richards - because many worked together and many did great things. Though not all were white, this is clearly seen by liberal critics as a white-led movement, and I honestly believe this has caused it to be largely under rated. They were experimenting with shifting tonal centers, non-chordal playing, etc - another problem is that there was often a discrepancy between the language of the composer and the language of the improvisers - few players had the tools to imrpvovise in any but the language of bebop, and so one hears adventurous writing followed by fairly conventional playing - some ventured outside of this, like Bley, but most remained fairly straight-ahead in their playing.

[JohnS]

I'm very fond of Teddy Charles. Most of the above albums are pretty much essential.

Does anyone know Something, New Somthing Blue on Columbia? This fits into this arena. My Fresh Sounds vinyl is so poorly equalised (I think) as to not too far short of unlistenable.

[garthsj]

I have a book in mansucript on jazz of the 1950s in which I talk a fair amount about Charles, as well as Hall Overton - I'm hoping to get this out in about a year or so - I think Charles in one of a large group of 1950s avant gardists who rarely get enough credit - partly for some Crow Jim reasons, but also because the course they charted was not much followed by the 1960s avant garde - it was a little bit more "academic" and not as blues-based, but still full of great possibilities, many of which were realized. It is very interesting to look at this group - Charles, Overton, Teo Macero, Gil Melle, John La Porta, Gil Evans, Bob Brookmeyer, John Carisis, Paul Bley, Mingus, George Russell - as well as some of the Kenton arrangers like Graettinger and even Johnny Richards - because many worked together and many did great things. Though not all were white, this is clearly seen by liberal critics as a white-led movement, and I honestly believe this has caused it to be largely under rated. They were experimenting with shifting tonal centers, non-chordal playing, etc - another problem is that there was often a discrepancy between the language of the composer and the language of the improvisers - few players had the tools to imrpvovise in any but the language of bebop, and so one hears adventurous writing followed by fairly conventional playing - some ventured outside of this, like Bley, but most remained fairly straight-ahead in their playing.

Allen,

I am very interested in your post, and your forthcoming book. I have long been an admirer of this early "avant-garde" school myself (I started my own jazz odyssey about his time), and your brief historical overview intrigued me, However, I am interested also in why you did not mention the "west coast" experimenters ... notably Shorty Rogers, Jimmy Giuffre and composers such as Bill Holman, and Bill Russo. Their body of work, so thankfully documented on those great Contemporary label recordings would certainly fall into tis category in some way. In Roger's seminal recording "The Three" with Giuffre and Shelly Manne, I was always impressed that the improvisations were not bop based. Clearly Giuffre was gearing up for the path that he would follow ten years later, while Rogers moved back into more conventional big band jazz.

When I was doing a jazz radio program several years ago, I did several shows featuring these early experimental jazz groups, and they never failed to elicit astonished response from then current avant-garde enthusiasts who had never been exposed to these early recordings. I remember in particular the strong response to "The Three" ... as well as to that strange (but beautiful) album of Jimmy Giuffre's. "Tangents in Jazz" (Capitol T-634, now in the Mosaic Giuffre Box).

I should also note that while I know your list was not meant to be complete, it would be amiss not to include Hal McKusick, and Bob Prince. And when will Columbia (Sony) reissue a remastered version of "Something New, Something Blue" (CS8183)? ..... [i see that JohnS above just beat me to the same conclusion .. clearly this is becoming a 'movement'!]

Thanks for the interesting post ... I know that there several others on this list that are intrigued by this little niche in jazz history ...

Garth.

Edited December 8, 2004 by garthsj

[Late]

Paging: David (Ghost of Miles) ~ sounds like another potential show? The "early" avant-garde?

Thanks for those posts Allen and Garth.

OK ... I don't know Bob Prince. What should I be looking for? I'm guessing he's known more as an arranger/composer than improviser?