King Oliver / Louis Armstrong

[jazztrain]

Does anyone have a copy of the Louis Armstrong Volume 1 on Media7/Masters of Jazz?  I'm looking for some information in the notes concerning the dating of the King Oliver sessions for Paramount.

Thanks in advance.

[exponent_of_sock]

Not familiar with that set, but that information can be found in the Rust Jazz Discography, which is publicly available here and probably several other places. It could use a few updates but is mostly accurate with respect to dates...the personnel is another story.

https://archive.org/details/brian-rust-jazz-records-free-edition-6

The Paramount King Oliver Creole Jazz Band session took place on c. December 24, 1923.

Edited December 11 by exponent_of_sock

[exponent_of_sock]

Being that set is was made by obscure French people in 1991, I'd strongly recommend avoiding and finding either the new Archeophone Centennial set,the Off the Record set from the early 2000s, or the John RT Davies Retrieval set. This one I'd wager is closer to the 'bottom of the barrel'.

[jazztrain]

1 hour ago, exponent_of_sock said:

Not familiar with that set, but that information can be found in the Rust Jazz Discography, which is publicly available here and probably several other places. It could use a few updates but is mostly accurate with respect to dates...the personnel is another story.

https://archive.org/details/brian-rust-jazz-records-free-edition-6

The Paramount King Oliver Creole Jazz Band session took place on c. December 24, 1923.

Thanks Exponent_of_Sock.  I'm quite familiar with Rust in its several editions and of his dating of the session as December 24, 1923.  This date is also included in several other sources, including the Laurie Wright Lord King Oliver discography published by Storyville, and earlier versions of Tom Lord's Jazz Discography.  It also is the date given in numerous reissues, including the Off the Record, Retrieval, and others.  The issue at hand is that a different date (early September 1923) has turned up in the current Tom Lord Jazz Discography, in the Willems Louis Armstrong discography, and in Michael Minn's online Armstrong discography.  In that discography, Minn states the following:

>>>

King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band
Early September, 1923?: Chicago, IL

A session for Paramount. This recording date is uncertain. Westerberg gives 12/24/23 for this session. Irakli de Davrichewy, discographer for the Media 7 CD series, defends his dating of this session as early September; he makes a convincing case that the earlier attributed date of December 24 is an arbitrary and unlikely choice. Willems concurs with the September date.

>>>

I want to see what Davrichewy uses to support his early September date.  If you look at available Paramount matrix numbers, the King Oliver session fits in between other sessions that are attributed to December 1923.  Of course, it's possible that those attributions are wrong as well.  That, in short, why I want to see the notes to Volume 1 of the Media 7 Armstrong series, since that volume contains the Paramount session in question.

Does anyone have the recent Archeophone Centennial issue and, if so, what if anything do they say about the date of the session?

 

 

[EKE BBB]

I do not own a copy of volume 1 of the Armstrong Masters of Jazz series, but, FWIW, the Frémeaux & Associés 'Louis Armstrong Intégrale, volume 1' also lists September 1923 for the Paramount King Oliver session. This edition dates back to 2006. Liner notes by Daniel Nevers (English version by Laurie Wright) state:

"(...) The same applies to the Paramount session (no connection with the eponymous Hollywood major), as all original recording sheets were destroyed in 1942. When these Oliver 78s were first republished, they were thought to be from late 1922. The date then changed to March 1923 and, later still, on Christmas Eve. Should this be the case we would hear the refashioned Oliver structure, but it is in fact the old band. Another enigma is that only three titles were made, but there again there maybe wasn't time for a fourth piece".

 

Edited December 11 by EKE BBB

[exponent_of_sock]

I have it at home along with some other discographies, e.g. the Vreede / van Rijn Paramount discography sets. Not there now to look...need to scan those liner notes for my digital records when I get a chance. The Off The Record set uses the 12/23/23 date. On 78discography.com, like you say, they cite several 1500-series matrices as November 1923, including a few exact dates, so I'm not exactly sure what the basis for 1622-1624 being September would be. I could be wrong, but December seems correct. It sounds equally arbitrary to toss out the decently-well-documented Paramount chronology for a hunch.

https://78discography.com/PMT20000.htm

Edited December 11 by exponent_of_sock

[jazztrain]

Thanks!  This is helpful.  The plot thickens...

[jazztrain]

7 minutes ago, exponent_of_sock said:

I have it at home along with some other discographies, e.g. the Vreede Paramount book set. Not there now to look...need to scan those liner notes for my digital records when I get a chance. The Off The Record set uses the 12/23/23 date. On 78discography.com, like you say, they cite several 1500-series matrices as November 1923, including a few exact dates, so I'm not exactly sure what the basis for 1622-1624 being September would be. I could be wrong, but December seems correct. It sounds equally arbitrary to toss out the decently-well-documented Paramount chronology for a hunch.

https://78discography.com/PMT20000.htm

Thanks, I had forgotten the 78discography.com site.  The information there concerning nearby matrices looks to be consistent with what I found in Rust.  The original Max Vreede Paramount book covers the 12000/13000 series but doesn't include recording dates.  Perhaps I can cross reference information there to dates in Blues & Gospel Records.

[exponent_of_sock]

The new King Oliver Centennial set seems to reuse the Off the Record discography for dating purposes--they also cite the December date. I hadn't spent much time with those van Rijn Paramount books, but they also don't list dates and don't seem to be of much help in the scant pages with session dating information. I think if Armstrong expert Ricky Riccardi had unearthed anything to the contrary it would have been reflected in the new set. Going to ask him for his take, which may or may not be in the new book on Armstrong's early years coming out soon.

[Big Beat Steve]

20 hours ago, exponent_of_sock said:

Not familiar with that set, but that information can be found in the Rust Jazz Discography, which is publicly available here and probably several other places. It could use a few updates but is mostly accurate with respect to dates...the personnel is another story.

https://archive.org/details/brian-rust-jazz-records-free-edition-6

The Paramount King Oliver Creole Jazz Band session took place on c. December 24, 1923.

Thanks for alerting everyone of that link to a free downloadable online version. Quite convenient, so I downloaded the PDF (though I already have a printed copy of "Rust"  - 4th ed., though). 
On a side note, I wonder, however, what the one who wrote the "presentation" of that opus (on the very same website) was thinking (if at all) ... OOP for 40 years?? That long, really? ... And then: "but Mr. Rust probably ended his discography in 1942 because this was the year he stopped writing the book?" Huh? Rust worked on his book MUCH later (as indicated e.g. by entries of collector LPs from the 60s or even 70s featuring previously unreleased pre-1942 jazz), and the focus on "early" jazz coincided broadly with his personal interests (an early edition of his discography had a cutoff date of 1931!). And as for the 1942 cutoff date here: Ever heard of the Petrillo ban? Which makes for a fairly "natural" cutoff if you have to limit the scope of your book. As for post-1942 discographies - "I don't know of such a book" .. Huh again ... When did the "Jepsen" hit the scene? 60 years ago, innit? And later on Brunyninckx, Lord, etc ... Not sure at all if such a clueless "promotional" text does the book made available there full justice ...

As for the question on hand about the actual session dates, this has me puzzled too, and I'd like to see the booklet text too. Irakli did have some serious "scene credentials" as an active musician considered the ultimate "French Louis Armstrong idolizer". So at leat to me he seems like someone who knew what he had researched. But OTOH if the sequence of the matrix numbers says otherwise and points towards  aDecember that seems to be some evidence too.
Wondering what storng-enough proof one way or another will come up ...

 

Edited December 12 by Big Beat Steve

[exponent_of_sock]

I asked Louis Armstrong expert Ricky Riccardi about this, and he agreed with my take that late December is correct due to the matrix numbers. He added that Willems had October, which is wrong and Minn just followed him. David Sager, he thinks, might have been the first to argue for December, writing, "The Paramount recordings are believed to be the final recorded testaments of the great 1923 band since there are conflicting views about when these were made. However, the matrix numbers indiciate December 1923." Laurie Wright agreed in his Oliver bio-discography.

My own view is that Lord et al. should be corrected being that there seems to be virtually no argument for before December. My guess is that the argument for earlier is some musiciological nonsense. Matrix numbers don't lie, though. Usually the people making arguments like this aren't hardcore record collectors.

Edited December 12 by exponent_of_sock

[John L]

I have the Masters of Jazz disc.  Irakli de Davrichewy wrote the liner notes and takes credit for redating the Paramount session from December to September.   His logic is that, first, Paramount matrix numbers often did not follow the chronological sequence of when music was recorded and, second, by the December date, several of the musicians present at the session had already left the band and were replaced by other musicians.  Curiously, he does not state in the text exactly which musicians but cites supporting evidence as being from a Preston Jackson interview in the November 1942 Down Beat and a quote of Johnny St. Cyr in the December 1948 Jazz Finder.  He entertains the idea that Oliver could have brought the musicians back just for this session but believes that to be highly improbable.  The month of September just seems to be a guess as a likely time in his view.   

Edited December 12 by John L

[exponent_of_sock]

I'd be curious to see examples of the matrix numbers not following a chronological sequence. I admit I haven't done much serious study, but I don't think there's much substance to that claim. He might have been confused because Paramount often sourced material from other manufacturers like Autograph.

[jazztrain]

John L,

Thanks very much for the info from the liner notes  That’s very helpful!

Exponent_of_Sock, I did a deep dive yesterday in Rust version 6 for Paramount matrices between 1400 and 1700.  The information in Rust for this block of matrices does not support the contention that they are not chronological.  The matrix numbers for the King Oliver session are consistent with a late December, 1923 recording date. Of course, it’s possible that all the Paramount recording dates are wrong, but this doesn’t seem likely. 

I was in touch with Tom Lord a few days ago, and he said he made the change based on information from Willems (which traces back to the liner notes). I’m going to share my findings with Lord later today. If any of you want to see the matrix number analysis, send me a  PM.  
 

 

[Big Beat Steve]

4 hours ago, John L said:

 ... and, second, by the December date, several of the musicians present at the session had already left the band and were replaced by other musicians.  Curiously, he does not state in the text exactly which musicians but cites supporting evidence as being from a Preston Jackson interview in the November 1942 Down Beat and a quote of Johnny St. Cyr in the December 1948 Jazz Finder.  He entertains the idea that Oliver could have brought the musicians back just for this session but believes that to be highly improbable. 

Just checked my magazines (I have about 2 full years of Jazzfinder/Playback from 1948-50), and the below article must be the one from the Dec. 1948 Jazzfinder that is being referred to:

I'll leave it to Oliver experts to interpret the contents.

FWIW, the 1942 Down Beats are available on the Worldradiohistory website.

 

 

Edited December 12 by Big Beat Steve