Classic Vanguard Small Group Swing Sessions Limited Edition Box Set (#280 – 7 CDs)

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Well I have listened to the other two Jimmy Rushing albums on this set:

VRS-8505 Jimmy Rushing And His All Stars

VRS-8513 Jimmy Rushing – Listen To The Blues

Rushing and his all stars was actually pretty good and fit pretty well within the rubric of 'small group swing'.     Listen to the Blues is a real stretch to be considered small group swing! When they start playing pentatonic electric guitar licks a la Chuck Berry its not a gray area.

I think the set would have been stronger if they cut it off at 5 disks and only included the second of the Rushing albums: And His All Stars.

Marlowe Morris' playing has not aged all that well.  Even the fellow who wrote the notes was kind of apologetic about the Marlowe.  The whole album - A Night at Count Basie's - is pretty forgettable.  I liked hearing Basie talk.  The music - eh. I'll probably never listen to it again.

Edited January 24 by Stompin at the Savoy

[mikeweil]

Juat saw that the British ACE label still has a handful of Vanguard vreissues in their catalog:

https://www.acerecords.co.uk/vanguard-label

[Big Beat Steve]

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Juat saw that the British ACE label still has a handful of Vanguard vreissues in their catalog:

https://www.acerecords.co.uk/vanguard-label

Yes but some of the few CDs listed that fall into the realm of the Mosaic reissue are programmed in what is a really senseless way for a (2nd or 3rd generation) reissue. E.g. the "Essential Jimmy Rushing" CD (which I, for example, picked up as a chance purchase only because it yielded me 5 of the 8 "If This Ain't The Blues" LP which I did not have yet). The original 2-LP set was made up of material from all 3 Rushing LPs on Vanguard (but all of them incomplete). This CD has 14 of the 16 LP tracks, i.e. it omits even more!  The other two CDs listed also mix the 3 LPs randomly but I wonder what the point ever was of re-reissuing that "Essential" twofer in such a brainless way. Surely there can never can have been that many tentative buyers in the market for not more than a sampling within such a "niche within a niche" market to warrant such a reissue at all?

BTW, on another matter, re- what Stompin' wrote on 24 January: By mistake I yesterday pulled a reissue of the "Night at Count Basie's" LP from the special offers bin at our local shop. As I found out upon returning home, I already have a copy sitting here, but this mistake triggered me to gave it a spin again. Nothing earth-shattering, but a swinging and casual affair in the Basie spirit, and certainly not as humdrum as Stompin' makes it sound. "Different strokes" and "one man's meat ...", I guess, but don't nobody let themselves be put THAT off ...

[mikeweil]

I agree, of course, I just wanted to post it for those who are looking for specific sessions. 

I ordered this one which will not be in the Mosaic boxes: 

[jazzbo]

Big Beat, I think the marketing strategy was to offer a few cds to someone who may only pick up one, and also encourage the serious collector to get them all to try to get all the originally released material over the lot of cds. 

Worked for me. I really did enjoy those cds a lot. Sound was decent for the time period, music great. Didn't need all the sessions to be sequenced complete, did want to have it all. And I do agree about "A Night at Count Basie's." I enjoy it--and the organ is a dated sound, but was the sound for the time period before this one and up to this one, and a very Basie organ sound as well.

My favorite Vanguard material I hope appears in the next Mosaic set: the Mel Powell material.

Edited Wednesday at 06:29 PM by jazzbo

[Stompin at the Savoy]

3 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

-snip-

BTW, on another matter, re- what Stompin' wrote on 24 January: By mistake I yesterday pulled a reissue of the "Night at Count Basie's" LP from the special offers bin at our local shop. As I found out upon returning home, I already have a copy sitting here, but this mistake triggered me to gave it a spin again. Nothing earth-shattering, but a swinging and casual affair in the Basie spirit, and certainly not as humdrum as Stompin' makes it sound. "Different strokes" and "one man's meat ...", I guess, but don't nobody let themselves be put THAT off ...

Okay, so you got home from the store and discovered gee whiz, I already have a copy of this!  You didn't remember listening to it or owning it.  Isn't this the very definition of a forgettable album?

By comparison, the Joe Newman album included earlier on the set, Joe Newman and His Band, is to me a memorable outing and on a different level as far as re-listen quotient.

Edited Wednesday at 07:18 PM by Stompin at the Savoy

[jazzbo]

One man's forgettable may be another's pretty pretty cool.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

5 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

One man's forgettable may be another's pretty pretty cool.

Yes, agreed.  On the other hand we have Steve denying the album could be ho-hum but it turned out totally forgettable to him.  I'm weird but I find this amusing!

Edited Wednesday at 07:25 PM by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

I'm under the impression that Marlowe ,Morris was very popular in Harlem for quite a while.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

11 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I'm under the impression that Marlowe ,Morris was very popular in Harlem for quite a while.

When I single him out and listen to lines he is playing he seems alright to me.  Maybe it's the instrument he is playing or the settings?  It's pretty awful.

[jazzbo]

To me that sounds like the organ sound of the 'forties and early 'fifties and how Basie himself generally sounded on the organ. So, of its time, accepted and enjoyed at the time. Jimmy Smith was such a big deal because he changed the sound.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

2 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

To me that sounds like the organ sound of the 'forties and early 'fifties and how Basie himself generally sounded on the organ. So, of its time, accepted and enjoyed at the time. Jimmy Smith was such a big deal because he changed the sound.

Yeah, I know and don't much like Basie's organ playing or that of Fats Waller, who tutored Basie on organ.  As a jazz instrument, the organ had not yet matured at this point.

[JSngry]

Not matured? It was how people played at the time. Didn't sound like they lacked for ideas or skills or anything.

Wild Bill Davis was another one, popular in his time, but those things are all but forgotten today. It's his later work that is known today. Too bad. It's all good.

No matter. There's two ways to listen to stuff like this - be spoken to by it andllearn from it or else try to teach it and scold it.

 

[Dan Gould]

The organ was used to replicate a big band until Smith. I don't think it's immature, just pre-Smith.

Different strokes.  Marlowe Morris' sole leader LP, Play the Thing, is very enjoyable, and with Buck Clayton, Buddy Tate and Jo Jones among others.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

OK if you say so.  But in the privacy of your own room, with nobody else around, please ask yourself how much time you have spent listening to Marlow Morris and how much time in future you see yourself spending listening to Marlow Morris.  Right up there with Miles Davis, right?

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, jazzbo said:

To me that sounds like the organ sound of the 'forties and early 'fifties and how Basie himself generally sounded on the organ. So, of its time, accepted and enjoyed at the time. Jimmy Smith was such a big deal because he changed the sound.

I sse it that way, too. There were a few organists who referred to that pre-Smith sound, like Jackie Davis, and Wild Bill Davis just continued his way. I love that diversity. Smith was great, and one of a kind, but not the only great way of playing jazz organ.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

OK if you say so.  But in the privacy of your own room, with nobody else around, please ask yourself how much time you have spent listening to Marlow Morris and how much time in future you see yourself spending listening to Marlow Morris.  Right up there with Miles Davis, right?

I listen to him whenever/wherever he turns up.

And I really only listen to Miles anymore when some new bootleg shows up. Been there done that, no sense in overkill. Still waiting for the live Jungle Band set tho. I will be comparing Miles' organ playing to Morris's. Apples to apples, at least closer.

Still check this one out pretty regularly tho:

 

Oh, Milt Buckner. 

If you don't dig Milt Buckner, you are wrong for jazz. Wrong, period imo.

[Big Beat Steve]

14 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Okay, so you got home from the store and discovered gee whiz, I already have a copy of this!  You didn't remember listening to it or owning it.  Isn't this the very definition of a forgettable album?

Nonsense. At approx. 8500 vinyl albums nobody can remember each and everyone of these at every moment.
I'd concede that this is one of many non-desert-island discs (most records in anyone's collection  - that has reached a certain size - are, anyway), but beyond that ...? Now really!

 

BTW, re- Marlowe Morris, when I listened to that Night At Count Basie's album last night I was immediately reminded of the Fats Waller and Basie way of playing the organ too. I see why it might grate some but like others have clearly pointed out since, there WAS a way of playing the organ pre-Jimmy Smith. And much as I have come to like Jimmy Smith in recent years, he is NOT the beginning and end of organ jazz at all, and apart from others (like the Scotts ), there's nothing wrong with the earlier styles either - be it Buckner, Wild Bill Davis, Doggett or most of the others, including Marlowe Morris. Their styles might not strike a chord with all listeners today at ANY moment (me neither) but there still are ways to enjoy them enasily.

Edited 23 hours ago by Big Beat Steve

[jazzbo]

9 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Nonsense. At approx. 8500 vinyl albums nobody can remember each and everyone at every moment.
I'd concede that this is one of many non-desert-island discs (most records in anyone's collection  - that has reached a certain size - are, anyway), but beyond that ...? Now really!

[Stompin at the Savoy]

8 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Nonsense. At approx. 8500 vinyl albums nobody can remember each and everyone of these at every moment.
I'd concede that this is one of many non-desert-island discs (most records in anyone's collection  - that has reached a certain size - are, anyway), but beyond that ...? Now really!

 

BTW, re- Marlowe Morris, when I listened to that Night At Count Basie's album last night I was immediately reminded of the Fats Waller and Basie way of playing the organ too. I see why it might grate some but like others have clearly pointed out since, there WAS a way of playing the organ pre-Jimmy Smith. And much as I have come to like Jimmy Smith in recent years, he is NOT the beginning and end of organ jazz at all, and apart from others (like the Scotts ), there's nothing wrong with the earlier styles either - be it Buckner, Wild Bill Davis, Doggett or most of the others, including Marlowe Morris. Their styles might not strike a chord with all listeners today at ANY moment (me neither) but there still are ways to enjoy them enasily.

Steve, you continue to make my point for me: earlier you claimed this was not a "humdrum" album but now you admit that "this is one of many non-desert-island discs".  Let's tally up the score, eh?  You totally forgot you owned this or what it sounds like.  After listening to it again, you admit it isn't great (ie not a desert island disc).  Your defense of Marlowe Morris amounts to: well, that's how organ jazz sounded in those days!  Or "their styles may not strike a chord with all listeners today at ANY moment" and you include yourself in this group.  This is hardly a ringing affirmation of how wonderful it sounds.  Remember my post that you were reacting to? 

Quote

Marlowe Morris' playing has not aged all that well.  Even the fellow who wrote the notes was kind of apologetic about the Marlowe.  The whole album - A Night at Count Basie's - is pretty forgettable.  I liked hearing Basie talk.  The music - eh. I'll probably never listen to it again.

The things you are saying now are not terribly different from my initial reaction above: you forgot what it sounded like or that you owned it; you don't think it is a desert island disc; and admit a lot of people aren't all that impressed with Morris, including yourself.  

The fact is nobody is running out to complete their collections of pre-Jimmy Smith organ jazz. I am not aware of any Marlowe M fan clubs. Many of those players, including Marlowe Morris, were used to creating a wall of sound, had trouble adapting their solo playing to the needs of an ensemble and tended to overwhelm and muddy up what the other players were doing.  The author of the Mosaic booklet admits as much about Morris in the booklet.  In my opinion Morris is even worse than Basie or Waller on the organ, sounding like a cross between a carnival and a late 50's ice rink.  But that's one man's opinion: don't let that stop you from spending your time lost in admiration of Marlowe Morris' organ recordings...

[Dan Gould]

32 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Steve, you continue to make my point for me: earlier you claimed this was not a "humdrum" album but now you admit that "this is one of many non-desert-island discs".  Let's tally up the score, eh?  You totally forgot you owned this or what it sounds like.  After listening to it again, you admit it isn't great (ie not a desert island disc).  Your defense of Marlowe Morris amounts to: well, that's how organ jazz sounded in those days!  Or "their styles may not strike a chord with all listeners today at ANY moment" and you include yourself in this group.  This is hardly a ringing affirmation of how wonderful it sounds.  Remember my post that you were reacting to? 

The things you are saying now are not terribly different from my initial reaction above: you forgot what it sounded like or that you owned it; you don't think it is a desert island disc; and admit a lot of people aren't all that impressed with Morris, including yourself.  

The fact is nobody is running out to complete their collections of pre-Jimmy Smith organ jazz. I am not aware of any Marlowe M fan clubs. Many of those players, including Marlowe Morris, were used to creating a wall of sound, had trouble adapting their solo playing to the needs of an ensemble and tended to overwhelm and muddy up what the other players were doing.  The author of the Mosaic booklet admits as much about Morris in the booklet.  In my opinion Morris is even worse than Basie or Waller on the organ, sounding like a cross between a carnival and a late 50's ice rink.  But that's one man's opinion: don't let that stop you from spending your time lost in admiration of Marlowe Morris' organ recordings...

I am not Steve but I find your criticisms and toldja sos to be misplaced.

Steve has, I will bet, thousands of recordings that are not "desert island" but that he enjoys a great deal. We ALL do.

And you do know a Marlow Morris fan - ME.

The Columbia album I mentioned above is very good. And Buddy Tate, Buck Clayton and all their friends do not get drowned out by Morris' organ.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

2 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

I am not Steve but I find your criticisms and toldja sos to be misplaced.

Steve has, I will bet, thousands of recordings that are not "desert island" but that he enjoys a great deal. We ALL do.

And you do know a Marlow Morris fan - ME.

The Columbia album I mentioned above is very good. And Buddy Tate, Buck Clayton and all their friends do not get drowned out by Morris' organ.

OK I will check out the Columbia album.

[Big Beat Steve]

@Stompin: As if there was nothing in between desert island discs and forgettable recordings ... My oh my ...
Isn't that a rather narrow(-minded) way of listening to things?

In reality there is an awful lot ( in fact, a majority) of "good" (not great, not bad) records out there in ANY given style of music. Not essential but nice to have around at the right moment. And ANY fan, listener and/or collector of music in ANY given style who is interested enough in that particular style to want to explore it in DEPTH (to make discoveries and get a more detailed picture) will gladly explore and listen to these. Even if many of these recordings are not going to finish on his all-time Top Ten and even if these discs are not something you would be in the mood for to listen to each day (but some other time, then, for sure).
All of these add to the variety of music across the board of artists and sort of flesh out the "big name artists' " skeleton of a style of music.
Besides, in the case of THIS Vanguard recording there is quite a bit more to listen to anyway, and its contents certainly do NOT boil down to the organ part only. Which overall is enough for it to be enjoyable as a "good" (not great but certainly not poor) recording.

So - again ... tastes differ, and I have mine, and am just sayin' - and you have yours and that's fine for you for but not pertinent for anyone else.

So no need to try to nail this down to some idle fandom (which is no criterion anyway). Besides, who says there AREN'T people "running out to complete their collections of pre-Jimmy Smith organ jazz" somewhere out there?

BTW, in case the Jimmy Rushing LP you did not like on the Mosaic set really was VRS-8513 and not VRS-8505, then its actual original title was "If This Ain't The Blues". "Listen to The Blues" is VRS-8505 and has no guitar. 
 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

OK I listened to this.  It is certainly a much better record than other Morris recordings I have heard.  The producer appears to have prevailed upon Morris to restrain his playing while other players solo and play only bass and quiet chords.  They may have been going for some sort of pop or blues crossover and Morris' right hand is considerably simplified from what he played on the At Count Basie's Vanguard album a few years earlier.  He still frequently holds down his fingers for several measures...  The other players, Edmond Hall and a bunch of Basie alumni, are good and play well.  Morris doesn't embarrass himself but also doesn't really excel either; the record is pretty good in spite of him. 

 

Edited 13 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

So Harlem was wrong?