Emily Remler

[Pim]

44 minutes ago, bertrand said:

Facebook posts from a Remler expert.

Cisco is apparently a Willis Jackson tune called Gator Whale and not the tune recorded by Pat Martino and later by Emily and Larry Coryell (as Gerry's Blues)

Samba de Orfeo is actually Meditation

So What is actually Moanin'

Again, I have yet to hear the CD but the poster seems reliable.

That sounds embarrassing…

[jazzbo]

It is correct that "Samba De Orfeu" is mis-labled.

"So What" is "So What" . . . then "Impressions."

Can't yet help with "Cisco."

 

[david weiss]

On 12/26/2024 at 2:18 PM, Pim said:

That sounds embarrassing…

I'm told that they went with whatever was listed on the tape boxes and no one double checked anything. It's not the first time stuff like this has happened. I am no longer associated with these folks and haven't been for a while now. I don't think anyone is really checking the work anymore. I'm not surprised these things have been happening. The not identifying or noticing there was a 2nd tenor player on a recording is more embarrassing to me but this is really sloppy work. 

[Dan Gould]

3 hours ago, david weiss said:

I'm told that they went with whatever was listed on the tape boxes and no one double checked anything. It's not the first time stuff like this has happened. I am no longer associated with these folks and haven't been for a while now. I don't think anyone is really checking the work anymore. I'm not surprised these things have been happening. The not identifying or noticing there was a 2nd tenor player on a recording is more embarrassing to me but this is really sloppy work. 

For a company that routinely adds extensive liners and commentary, it seems they are pushing a "highest quality, we're the best doing this" reputation which is completely belied by such inattention to detail.  

[AllenLowe]

More troubling to me are her constant technical problems; she flubs phrases on both the purported "Moanin" (which is all cliche and lots of slips; she really cannot handle the tempo) - and Even on Cisco, which is much better, but on which she slips a few times and tends to fall back on stock phrases.

Not my favorite guitarist. Maybe it was drug stuff, but the more I listen to her the more weary I get of her resort to blue cliches (and hear her mess up on the closing melody statement of "Cisco.") (yes I know, not the correct title). And the wrong note she plays at 11:51 on Cisco.

Edited December 29, 2024 by AllenLowe

[Ken Dryden]

On 12/26/2024 at 1:33 PM, bertrand said:

Facebook posts from a Remler expert.

Cisco is apparently a Willis Jackson tune called Gator Whale and not the tune recorded by Pat Martino and later by Emily and Larry Coryell (as Gerry's Blues)

Samba de Orfeo is actually Meditation

So What is actually Moanin'

Again, I have yet to hear the CD but the poster seems reliable.

The opening track on the CD is correctly labeled "Moanin'." 

I don't know the tune "Cisco" nor "Gator Whale," so I will have to research them tomorrow.

"Samba de Orfeo" does seem to be "Meditation," I compared it to the version on the Joe Pass album Meditation.

The Disc 2 track 7 medley labeled as beginning with "So What" is correct.

[david weiss]

On 12/29/2024 at 10:55 AM, AllenLowe said:

More troubling to me are her constant technical problems; she flubs phrases on both the purported "Moanin" (which is all cliche and lots of slips; she really cannot handle the tempo) - and Even on Cisco, which is much better, but on which she slips a few times and tends to fall back on stock phrases.

Not my favorite guitarist. Maybe it was drug stuff, but the more I listen to her the more weary I get of her resort to blue cliches (and hear her mess up on the closing melody statement of "Cisco.") (yes I know, not the correct title). And the wrong note she plays at 11:51 on Cisco.

You touch on an interesting dilemma. 

If you are not a fan of the artist, then it's simple, don't buy the album.

But the real question here is what is the main goal when preparing a package like this. 

On a previous Sonny Rollins release, there were many here who lamented about the fact that there was an edit or two and wanted it complete and unedited no matter what. Most also thought that making edits to make the music more palatable for the masses was a waste of time or simply not as important as presenting every note. 

A (real) producer is trying to put together the best product they can which means if a tune has too many glitches, perhaps you don't include it or you make a good edit or two to tighten up the track and make it more listenable. The best labels/producers/artists have always done that when making their albums. Some think they should be doing that with these unearthed live recordings as well. Some artists do not want inferior product out there and some estates try to protect their artists as well. No matter what philosophy you go with, quality control should be a thing and that doesn't seem to be happening as much as it should.....

On 12/29/2024 at 6:44 AM, Dan Gould said:

For a company that routinely adds extensive liners and commentary, it seems they are pushing a "highest quality, we're the best doing this" reputation which is completely belied by such inattention to detail.  

The label does a lot of good work and puts together some nice packages. However, the actual music or the proper presentation of it seems to be taking a back seat to everything else lately. If the person who is in charge of this aspect of the project can't identify there is a 2nd tenor player on a couple of tunes or doesn't double check the tunes are correctly identified, then they might need some help they don't seem to have anymore. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by david weiss

[Niko]

2 hours ago, david weiss said:

The label does a lot of good work and puts together some nice packages. However, the actual music or the proper presentation of it seems to be taking a back seat to everything else lately. If the person who is in charge of this aspect of the project can't identify there is a 2nd tenor player on a couple of tunes or doesn't double check the tunes are correctly identified, then they might need some help they don't seem to have anymore. 

agree that that second tenor player on the Stitt record still takes the cake, agree with you and Dan that the priorities in those deluxe packages seem completely off... who needs a booklet with  "recollections from esteemed guitarists Russell Malone, Mike Stern, Rodney Jones and Dave Stryker along with Remler advocates Mimi Fox, Jocelyn Gould, Amanda Monaco" if you can't trust the lineup and tracklist... 

[Ken Dryden]

I have always maintained that the liner note writer should check song titles, spelling of names, composer credits and instrumentation as part of the job. I have found mistakes on nearly every release as I was prepping liner notes, while one best of compilation initially included a track where the artist didn’t even solo. The track was removed after I mentioned it.

[AllenLowe]

7 hours ago, david weiss said:

You touch on an interesting dilemma. 

If you are not a fan of the artist, then it's simple, don't buy the album.

But the real question here is what is the main goal when preparing a package like this. 

On a previous Sonny Rollins release, there were many here who lamented about the fact that there was an edit or two and wanted it complete and unedited no matter what. Most also thought that making edits to make the music more palatable for the masses was a waste of time or simply not as important as presenting every note. 

A (real) producer is trying to put together the best product they can which means if a tune has too many glitches, perhaps you don't include it or you make a good edit or two to tighten up the track and make it more listenable. The best labels/producers/artists have always done that when making their albums. Some think they should be doing that with these unearthed live recordings as well. Some artists do not want inferior product out there and some estates try to protect their artists as well. No matter what philosophy you go with, quality control should be a thing and that doesn't seem to be happening as much as it should.....

The label does a lot of good work and puts together some nice packages. However, the actual music or the proper presentation of it seems to be taking a back seat to everything else lately. If the person who is in charge of this aspect of the project can't identify there is a 2nd tenor player on a couple of tunes or doesn't double check the tunes are correctly identified, then they might need some help they don't seem to have anymore. 

the one time I saw her play, right at the beginning of her career, she seemed fine, but I listen to her now on line and I hear lots of little problems, including falling back on some of the same phrases repeatedly. I can only conclude that there was some kind of impairment. What does one do? I don't know exactly, but I think it's wrong to praise people for the wrong reasons. Editing of performances can be ok, depending how it is done, if it is just one or two spots, but on some of her stuff I hear a lot of problems. Think of Bird on Lover Man where he is clearly beat to hell; it's ok to listen to it but one has to be aware.

[Pim]

1 hour ago, AllenLowe said:

the one time I saw her play, right at the beginning of her career, she seemed fine, but I listen to her now on line and I hear lots of little problems, including falling back on some of the same phrases repeatedly. I can only conclude that there was some kind of impairment. What does one do? I don't know exactly, but I think it's wrong to praise people for the wrong reasons. Editing of performances can be ok, depending how it is done, if it is just one or two spots, but on some of her stuff I hear a lot of problems. Think of Bird on Lover Man where he is clearly beat to hell; it's ok to listen to it but one has to be aware.

Maybe the fact that you're a musician does not help with these kind of things? Like you can't not hear those things? I'll probably don't hear it and enjoy it anyway. I don't think that's praising people for the wrong reasons: I just listen and there is stuff I like and stuff I don't like. I feel happy I don't have to make a technical analysis of it. Maybe those repeating licks are part of Emily's style I don't know? I am the big worshipper of probably the most repetitive jazz pianist in history: that's Mal Waldron of course. 

In the past months you made not so nice remarks of people like Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, George Adams, Oscar Peterson, Joe Henderson, Donald Byrd etc.... All musicians I hold highly in regard. 

Edited December 31, 2024 by Pim

[soulpope]

Searching for wrong notes doesn't help .... music either works for the listener .... or not ....

[jlhoots]

3 hours ago, Pim said:

Maybe the fact that you're a musician does not help with these kind of things? Like you can't not hear those things? I'll probably don't hear it and enjoy it anyway. I don't think that's praising people for the wrong reasons: I just listen and there is stuff I like and stuff I don't like. I feel happy I don't have to make a technical analysis of it. Maybe those repeating licks are part of Emily's style I don't know? I am the big worshipper of probably the most repetitive jazz pianist in history: that's Mal Waldron of course. 

In the past months you made not so nice remarks of people like Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, George Adams, Oscar Peterson, Joe Henderson, Donald Byrd etc.... All musicians I hold highly in regard. 

Grant Green was "repetitive" too, & I like most of his recordings. I'm not qualified to reflect on technique.

[Brad]

4 hours ago, Pim said:

Maybe the fact that you're a musician does not help with these kind of things? Like you can't not hear those things? I'll probably don't hear it and enjoy it anyway. I don't think that's praising people for the wrong reasons: I just listen and there is stuff I like and stuff I don't like. I feel happy I don't have to make a technical analysis of it. Maybe those repeating licks are part of Emily's style I don't know? I am the big worshipper of probably the most repetitive jazz pianist in history: that's Mal Waldron of course. 

In the past months you made not so nice remarks of people like Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, George Adams, Oscar Peterson, Joe Henderson, Donald Byrd etc.... All musicians I hold highly in regard. 

I think some of us are not musicians and these technical mistakes will go over our heads (as in mine). I’m frankly happy to have this recording, even with some of the mistakes as her body of work is unfortunately not extensive. 

[JSngry]

53 minutes ago, soulpope said:

Searching for wrong notes doesn't help ....

It's not "searching for" them if they call attention to themselves ....

[JSngry]

 

[Brad]

1 hour ago, soulpope said:

Searching for wrong notes doesn't help .... music either works for the listener .... or not ....

Do you mean a critic trying to find something wrong?

[soulpope]

44 minutes ago, Brad said:

Do you mean a critic trying to find something wrong?

No .... simply whether the music is speaking to you .... or not .... btw but we are seemingly living in a world of (artificial) perfectionism  ....

[JSngry]

35 minutes ago, soulpope said:

No .... simply whether the the music is speaking to you .... or not .... btw but we are seemingly living in a world of (artificial) perfectionism  ....

No.

Wrong notes/flubs can still be moving.

Those are two totally different things.

There's one reason why people practice, to minimize the likelihood of obvious mistakes.

That's not artificial perfectionism. That's just basic musicianship.

And yet they will still happen.

 

[Rabshakeh]

But there's also repetitive or rote playing. 

Sometimes not a bad thing.  Can be very satisfying. 

[JSngry]

1 minute ago, Rabshakeh said:

But there's also repetitive or rote playing. 

Sometimes not a bad thing.  Can be very satisfying. 

It's just a tool, nothing more.

And like any tool, it can be employed artfully or it can be employed tritely, and/or anywhere in between.

[AllenLowe]

7 hours ago, Pim said:

Maybe the fact that you're a musician does not help with these kind of things? Like you can't not hear those things? I'll probably don't hear it and enjoy it anyway. I don't think that's praising people for the wrong reasons: I just listen and there is stuff I like and stuff I don't like. I feel happy I don't have to make a technical analysis of it. Maybe those repeating licks are part of Emily's style I don't know? I am the big worshipper of probably the most repetitive jazz pianist in history: that's Mal Waldron of course. 

In the past months you made not so nice remarks of people like Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, George Adams, Oscar Peterson, Joe Henderson, Donald Byrd etc.... All musicians I hold highly in regard. 

so you are keeping a chart? I am not a big fan of Peterson, Adams or Henderson; not sure what I might have said about Shorter or Hubbard (except I prefer Shorter's work with Miles to the dates under his own name; I am less enamored of his composing than many others are, though I think he was one of the greatest tenor players ever). Hubbard is great, leaves me cold sometimes. Am I offended that you like players I don't? No, I'm not, so you shouldn't be offended by the opposite.

As for repetition, there is a difference between an approach that uses these phrases as a technique, per Waldron (and Monk). It is just clear to me in a lot of theses performances that she is straining, going on habit. As I said, I suspect it has to do with substance abuse.

But once again I point out the silliness of people feeling offended by my disliking musicians that they like (and I am not talking about Pim). Have I ever accused anyone here of having an ulterior motive for liking O.P. (whose playing really offends me)? No. But I have been attacked here more than once for having an opinion that differs from  the prevailing opinion. And it's tiresome.

I welcome discussion and argument, but some of the prior implications here (in other, older threads) are out of line.

[Ken Dryden]

38 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

so you are keeping a chart? I am not a big fan of Peterson, Adams or Henderson; not sure what I might have said about Shorter or Hubbard (except I prefer Shorter's work with Miles to the dates under his own name; I am less enamored of his composing than many others are, though I think he was one of the greatest tenor players ever). Hubbard is great, leaves me cold sometimes. Am I offended that you like players I don't? No, I'm not, so you shouldn't be offended by the opposite.

As for repetition, there is a difference between an approach that uses these phrases as a technique, per Waldron (and Monk). It is just clear to me in a lot of theses performances that she is straining, going on habit. As I said, I suspect it has to do with substance abuse.

But once again I point out the silliness of people feeling offended by my disliking musicians that they like (and I am not talking about Pim). Have I ever accused anyone here of having an ulterior motive for liking O.P. (whose playing really offends me)? No. But I have been attacked here more than once for having an opinion that differs from  the prevailing opinion. And it's tiresome.

I welcome discussion and argument, but some of the prior implications here (in other, older threads) are out of line.

I'm in the midst of transcribing interviews I've done since 1987 and ran across Bob Brookmeyer's remarks about Herbie Hancock's Gershwin's World and Wayne Shorter's solos on that CD, they were not positive.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but writers may want to avoid becoming the butt of jokes, like John Tynan's "anti-jazz' labeling of the early 1960s work of John Coltrane and Eric Dolphy. Their music has stood the test of time better than his writing.

 

 

 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I don't really know Remmler's work that well but I have listened to her and watched  some videos.  As a guitar player myself, I see her as having very good control of lots of basic technical stuff; pretty good chops and good time.  That's my opinion which anyone can agree or disagree with - neither is a problem for me.  Same with Lowe, who knows more about music than I do: I kind of disagree with him about Remmler but he has every right to his own opinion.  The part I don't get: why trash her publicly?  Is there something good or helpful about that?  Trashing her and blaming it on her drug use adds insult to injury.

edit: I just listened to the sample at Bandcamp called "Cisco".  It's a slow intro followed by Black Orpheus.  I liked it.  Were there a few flubs?  Possibly.  I was looking for them but nothing really stood out to me.  She has a very nice technical ability to play complicated ascending and descending figures and carry them out all the way - fingering on guitar is difficult.  Lowe is nit-picking!

Edited 6 hours ago by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

Her struggle with addiction was basically common knowledge before she died, and definitely was after. So it's not like tales are being told out of school.