Mosaic Records V-Disc set(s) + Vanguard info

[medjuck]

184 of the Jubilee show are available as downloads or mp3 cds for $20 at https://www.otrcat.com/search/?cd_pref=mp3&q=Jubilee.  You can also get them as regular cds for $435.  This is not the complete run (184 shows)  but many important shows are included. 

At one point many shows were available for free down load but I can't remember where. 

A complete description of all 300 hundred Jubilee show can be found at the Glenn Miller Archives at the University of Boulder. https://www.colorado.edu/amrc/glenn-miller-collections/inside-glenn-miller-collections

Edited July 20 by medjuck

[JSngry]

7 hours ago, Brad said:

I’m not sure of the answer but it was a long time ago and if either party had wanted to do something, that time is long past and no one cares anymore.

There is an answer, and I'd love to know it! Either the original agreements have been officially amended or they haven't. If they haven't, then...Palo Alto!

The lack of any activity on these items by any legit domestic label all these years is telling...the market would have been there 50+ years ago, more than today.

Nobody cares anymore? Could be. But as long as the original contracts are still on the books, unammended, mischief makers could always pop up. If they do, some definitive ruling could be gotten. Unless if course we already have one.

I am not failing to see the irony of Mosaic doing a "public domain" release, it's kinda funny!

[mjzee]

A lot of the performances on the Jubilee shows aren't special in and of themselves - the established bands' tracks sound very similar to their original versions.  Of more interest are bands whose official recordings weren't easily available.  For example, Wilbert Baranco makes a few appearances on these Jubilee shows, but I first heard his original recordings on Mosaic's Black & White box.  I've listened to quite a few of the original Jubilee shows, and a lot of them are a tough slog to find the few items of interest: you get a lot of Ernie "Bubbles" Whitman, interviews, vocal groups, girl singers and the like.  I think it's much better to get a curated version.

Hindsight did put out a good box in 1998; they selected excellent tracks and used judicious EQ to make them more listenable:

[JSngry]

I very much like the Bubbles Whitman patter, for sheer lunacy sake, once remover from historical context.

Diddy Gallippy!!!

Boyd Raeburn has a few really good Jubilee spots. Better than any studio records.

[medjuck]

The first 20 shows include Ellington, Basie, Carter, Calloway, Lunceford, Armstrong, Hite,  Hampton, Watters, Horne and Holiday. That's a pretty good list. 

[JSngry]

And then there's the one with Bird, Willie Smith, and Benny Carter jamming with the Bat Cole Trio!

A free for all and free for all of you!

[T.D.]

 

[Brad]

8 hours ago, JSngry said:

There is an answer, and I'd love to know it! Either the original agreements have been officially amended or they haven't. If they haven't, then...Palo Alto!

The lack of any activity on these items by any legit domestic label all these years is telling...the market would have been there 50+ years ago, more than today.

Nobody cares anymore? Could be. But as long as the original contracts are still on the books, unammended, mischief makers could always pop up. If they do, some definitive ruling could be gotten. Unless if course we already have one.

I am not failing to see the irony of Mosaic doing a "public domain" release, it's kinda funny!

The original agreements would have expired a long time ago. Generally, if a party to an agreement breaches it, you have to bring an action within six years of the breach. If a third person kept the discs, it would be up to one of the parties to bring an action against that third person. Assuming that no actions were ever brought, it is now far too late to bring an action because of the doctrine of laches (sleeping on your rights). 

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Brad said:

The original agreements would have expired a long time ago. 

What if the original agreements contained the phrase "in perpetuity"?

[Stompin at the Savoy]

There is some interesting info here https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/music-law-101-how-long-does-copyright-57301/ 

I think the genie is out of the bottle already.  These things have been published in various ways and nothing has been done about it. If I read the material in the link above correctly, any conceivable copyright that may have existed is either expired now or just about to expire.

Any performer who was 20 years old in 1943 is now 101 if they are still alive. 

[JSngry]

6 minutes ago, Brad said:

The original agreements would have expired a long time ago. Generally, if a party to an agreement breaches it, you have to bring an action within six years of the breach. If a third person kept the discs, it would be up to one of the parties to bring an action against that third person. 

The parties involved - the government and the AFM - have yet to breach the agreement.

When Columbia released their collection of Sinatra V-Discs (which wasn't complete, leave to Jazz Factory to put out the rest), was any mention made of an agreement between them and the original parties? Or did they just go ahead and do it, gangster it in out t

That would seem to be the only American high-profile release that would trigger any kind of action, and of course none were forthcoming.

If this is the case, it's a bit disappointing that money is eventually being made where it wasn't supposed to ever be made, at all.

Nobody gets paid, ever, until there's nobody left who should have.. No reparations to the AFM, not piece of change for veterans. Spotify is generous, another treaty violated once it becomes convenient.

Dieing for freedom!

23 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

There is some interesting info here https://www.jdsupra.com/legalnews/music-law-101-how-long-does-copyright-57301/ 

I think the genie is out of the bottle already.  These things have been published in various ways and nothing has been done about it. If I read the material in the link above correctly, any conceivable copyright that may have existed is either expired now or just about to expire.

Any performer who was 20 years old in 1943 is now 101 if they are still alive. 

This would not be an issue if copyright, though. Copyright claim was waived in exchange for a zero-commercial use agreement.

This would be more along the lines of Terms Of Use and a violation thereof.

The only company to date that really matters is Columbia. I would really like to know how their legal department handled the Sinatra release.

 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The parties involved - the government and the AFM - have yet to breach the agreement.

When Columbia released their collection of Sinatra V-Discs (which wasn't complete, leave to Jazz Factory to put out the rest), was any mention made of an agreement between them and the original parties? Or did they just go ahead and do it, gangster it in out t

That would seem to be the only American high-profile release that would trigger any kind of action, and of course none were forthcoming.

If this is the case, it's a bit disappointing that money is eventually being made where it wasn't supposed to ever be made, at all.

Nobody gets paid, ever, until there's nobody left who should have.. No reparations to the AFM, not piece of change for veterans. Spotify is generous, another treaty violated once it becomes convenient.

Dieing for freedom!

These were funded with US taxpayer dollars to provide entertainment and recreation for the troops 80 years ago.  The original plan was to destroy every bit of that great music.  I for one am very glad GIs, collectors, and pirate publishers have kept this music available.  It was funded by the public and it seems fitting to me that these recordings should now be in the public domain.

[JSngry]

17 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

 It was funded by the public and it seems fitting to me that these recordings should now be in the public domain.

I can't - and won't - argue with any of that. But is Mosaic selling it at a "public domain" price point? Did Columbia?

And are the proceeds of these sales going back into any kind of taxpayer-related pool?

No?

So in effect, "we" are paying twice - once for the material production and distribution (but not for any musical expenses, remember, that was all done free of charge), and now again to buy what "we" have already paid for, in a format that "we" weren't supposed to have to begin with.

Although, my dad served in the Army during WWII. But stateside, so I guess he wouldn't have been eligible.

I'd feel a lot less ambiguous about this (and I'm still preordering) if the AFM and some branch of the DOD would issue a joint declaration releasing all these V-Discs from all prior contractual obligations and that they're now fair game for all to enjoy and for all who are able to profit from. Can't be that complicated, can it?

Until then, this seems like the old "wait 'em out" strategy, to just wait until there's too few people left who could press the point, and then just run it on through. Mosaic has always railed against the Euro PDMusiporn sets for running this exact game.

Is Mosaic now obligated to pay composer/publishing fees? And nothing for performers estates? Not even to be held in escrow?

This seems like a very non-Cuscuna strategy. But he's dead now.

Maybe I'll wait for used copies....

[Stompin at the Savoy]

51 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I can't - and won't - argue with any of that. But is Mosaic selling it at a "public domain" price point? Did Columbia?

And are the proceeds of these sales going back into any kind of taxpayer-related pool?

No?

So in effect, "we" are paying twice - once for the material production and distribution (but not for any musical expenses, remember, that was all done free of charge), and now again to buy what "we" have already paid for, in a format that "we" weren't supposed to have to begin with.

Although, my dad served in the Army during WWII. But stateside, so I guess he wouldn't have been eligible.

I'd feel a lot less ambiguous about this (and I'm still preordering) if the AFM and some branch of the DOD would issue a joint declaration releasing all these V-Discs from all prior contractual obligations and that they're now fair game for all to enjoy and for all who are able to profit from. Can't be that complicated, can it?

Until then, this seems like the old "wait 'em out" strategy, to just wait until there's too few people left who could press the point, and then just run it on through. Mosaic has always railed against the Euro PDMusiporn sets for running this exact game.

Is Mosaic now obligated to pay composer/publishing fees? And nothing for performers estates? Not even to be held in escrow?

This seems like a very non-Cuscuna strategy. But he's dead now.

Maybe I'll wait for used copies....

We're not paying Mosaic for the recordings per se.  We are paying them for the research and discography work, for finding the best sources, for transferring, cleaning up and mastering these recordings, and presenting them in a nice package.  Making these recordings accessible is a service to the artists, virtually all of whom are deceased and don't need money now.

Edited July 21 by Stompin at the Savoy

[sidewinder]

3 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

We're not paying Mosaic for the recordings per se.  We are paying them for the research and discography work, for finding the best sources, for transferring, cleaning up and mastering these recordings, and presenting them in a nice package.  Making these recordings accessible is a service to the artists, virtually all of whom are deceased and don't need money now.

I agree.

Edited July 21 by sidewinder

[mikeweil]

On 7/20/2024 at 1:53 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

Like Dan Gould, I wonder how much of the Vanguard sessions really is new (or how many unissued tracks - or sessions - there are out there at all). In fact, given the almost countless reissue repackagings from the 70s and 80s, I've found the Vanguard sessions are among those where you are most liable to end up with duplicate purchases because there were sooo many different reissues from the US, UK, France and elsewhere (that never were exceedingly rare on the secondhand market) that it is almost impossible to remember exactly the contents of which cover artwork equal those of LPs with totally different cover artwork.

Lord lists one unissued alternate take from a Buck Clayton session. Studying the release history in different formats, often adding new tracks from the same session, suggests there might be more. But getting those tracks in session order and from good sources justifies such a set, given the excellent recorded sound of this music.

[tranemonk]

Okay ... can you guys dumb it down for me? We are talking about 4-5 boxed sets of material from Vanguard (a label?) and not the Village Vanguard and the V-Discs like the Ellington Treasury sets from Storyville. These would be recordings from the 40s and 50s. Is that right?

[mjzee]

19 minutes ago, tranemonk said:

Okay ... can you guys dumb it down for me? We are talking about 4-5 boxed sets of material from Vanguard (a label?) and not the Village Vanguard and the V-Discs like the Ellington Treasury sets from Storyville. These would be recordings from the 40s and 50s. Is that right?

Vanguard was a label: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_Records.  Their masters are currently owned by Concord.

Per the original post, Mosaic is planning to release two boxes of Vanguard jazz: one of small groups, and one of pianists.

Mosaic is also planning to release two other boxes of V-Disc recordings: one of small groups, and one of big bands.

These would indeed be recordings from the 40s and 50s.

Nothing from the Village Vanguard.

I hope this helps.

[jazzbo]

TM: a site that has a lot of info about V-Disks.

https://www.savethevinyl.org/v-disc-the-story-of-the-american-military-record-label-during-wwii.html#:~:text=V-Disc ("V" for Victory) was a morale-boosting initiative,the use of United States military personnel overseas.

The Vanguard Records material would be 'fifties and possibly 'sixties material. Vanguard Records was started in 1950 and began its jazz recording in 1953.

Edited July 21 by jazzbo

[Rooster_Ties]

9 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

The Vanguard Records material would be 'fifties and possibly 'sixties material.

Wonder what there could be from the 1960’s??  Have to confess I’m not at all familiar with the label, so I don’t even know who was on it in the 50’s either.

[ghost of miles]

20 hours ago, mjzee said:

A lot of the performances on the Jubilee shows aren't special in and of themselves - the established bands' tracks sound very similar to their original versions.  Of more interest are bands whose official recordings weren't easily available.  For example, Wilbert Baranco makes a few appearances on these Jubilee shows, but I first heard his original recordings on Mosaic's Black & White box.  I've listened to quite a few of the original Jubilee shows, and a lot of them are a tough slog to find the few items of interest: you get a lot of Ernie "Bubbles" Whitman, interviews, vocal groups, girl singers and the like.  I think it's much better to get a curated version.

Hindsight did put out a good box in 1998; they selected excellent tracks and used judicious EQ to make them more listenable:

Excellent set! Highly recommended for anyone who’s interested in the Jubilee era.

[jazzbo]

7 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Wonder what there could be from the 1960’s??  Have to confess I’m not at all familiar with the label, so I don’t even know who was on it in the 50’s either.

We don't yet have solid information about the scope of these sets. I would assume they would center on more mainstream jazz and swing artists in the "Jazz Showcase" series. . . but Vanguard recorded into the 'eighties and beyond including groups from 'sixties and 'seventies such as the Dave Burns, the Armstrong releases and the Coryell groups and into the 'eighties with Oregon, etc. Anyway a look at the label's output via discogs.com for example will show possible material. Most likely it will only be selections from the Jazz Showcase series.

Here is the discogs listing of "Jazz Showcase" releases:

https://www.discogs.com/label/191588-Vanguard-Jazz-Showcase?page=1

Edited July 21 by jazzbo

[kh1958]

Some information here: 

Also, Clark Terry has some big band recordings on Vanguard.

Edited July 21 by kh1958

[JSngry]

The Dave Burns and Bill English sides are both excellent, but neither are likely to be included. No John Hammond connection.

[tranemonk]

2 hours ago, mjzee said:

Vanguard was a label: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanguard_Records.  Their masters are currently owned by Concord.

Per the original post, Mosaic is planning to release two boxes of Vanguard jazz: one of small groups, and one of pianists.

Mosaic is also planning to release two other boxes of V-Disc recordings: one of small groups, and one of big bands.

These would indeed be recordings from the 40s and 50s.

Nothing from the Village Vanguard.

I hope this helps.

Immensely helpful... thanks.