Mosaic Records V-Disc set(s) + Vanguard info

[ghost of miles]

Found the following online in a Syncopated Times elegy for Michael Cuscuna:

But the label will continue to offer quality jazz reissues, adhering to the philosophy Cuscuna and Lourie devised. “We have a couple of Vanguard projects in progress that Michael and I worked on together, but there’s still a lot that needs to be done. The first one will be—I forget how many discs, probably seven, I guess, of the small group, material. They’re all things John Hammond produced, with artists like Vic Dickinson and Ruby Braff and Sir Charles Thompson. It’s mainstream swing of that period, which is the mid-’50s. And then we’ll have a later set strictly dealing with piano from people like Bobby Henderson and Mel Powell and Ellis Larkins.

“Another thing I’m working on now is a collection of small-group V-Discs. That will be out in the summer, I hope, featuring all sorts of small group things. And then next year, we’ll probably be putting together a V-Discs big band collection. It was owned by the government, so it’s all public domain.”

The US government’s V- (for victory) Disc program began in 1942, but took the form for which it's best known a year later, when Lt. George Robert Vincent convinced his superiors to okay a project in which top musical artists of the day would record songs especially for those serving overseas. For contractual reasons, the records were supposed to be destroyed before their owners returned to the US. Not surprisingly, many of those records survived. The challenge has been to find ones that are in decent shape.

“Yeah, that’s really it,” said Wenzel. “I got some through Lloyd Rauch, a collector friend of mine, and some through Tony Janak (of Columbia Records), who was one of the guys who started the program during the war. He had some glass masters for V-Discs with Red Norvo and Mildred Bailey on them, and some Woody Herman, too. We transferred those just last week. And the rest of them are coming from 78s, which is okay, because 98 percent of them were vinyl so they could send them off to the servicemen without them breaking on the way.”

V-Discs are especially significant because the first few years of the program coincided with a recording ban called by James C. Petrillo, head of the musicians’ union, who believed the royalty structures for radio play were unfair. So, even as jazz went through some monumental changes, these were the only records that filled that gap. “Yeah,” Wenzel sighed wistfully. “I mean, it’s too bad that we don’t have the Earl Hines big band, for instance. But there’s Art Tatum, there’s plenty of Tatum, and some great playing by Bob Crosby’s Bobcats and other swing stars like Roy Eldridge.”

Edited July 19 by ghost of miles

[jazzbo]

Thanks David. That's four sets to look forward to! 

[Dan Gould]

How much Vanguard material wasn't issued on CD back in the 90s/2000s? I know the issue policy was haphazard with different dates being combined and shitte like that but I am wondering how much is "new". That will determine whether I open up the wallet for that set.

[JSngry]

Was there ever an official ruling/declaration/whatever that V-Discs are actually PD? Or has this become an interpretational assumption that people starting using and it's just never been challenged?

I do think it would be a good gesture by Mosaic to donate some small portion of the proceeds to a worthy Veterans group.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

At one time possession of them was strictly prohibited and they would severely punish service men who were found to have brought back some of the disks, as I remember. 

There is quite a bit of good stuff in those disks!  I'm really happy that Mosaic is going to clean those up the best they can and publish sets.

[Rooster_Ties]

2 hours ago, jazzbo said:

Thanks David. That's four sets to look forward to! 

Am I missing something? (I only count 3.)

[HutchFan]

6 minutes ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Am I missing something? (I only count 3.)

Two Vanguard sets and two V-Disc sets = Four.

[colinmce]

I'm not too sure about the Vanguard piano and V-Disc big bands sets, but I am all in for the Vanguard swing, and am curious to see what's on the V-Disc small groups one. Glad to hear they are staying busy.

[mikeweil]

Great news. I'm in for the Vaguard sets.

[jazzbo]

3 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

How much Vanguard material wasn't issued on CD back in the 90s/2000s? I know the issue policy was haphazard with different dates being combined and shitte like that but I am wondering how much is "new". That will determine whether I open up the wallet for that set.

I'd estimate about 30 percent from my browsing over the years. I really like the piano stuff, and the small group swing.

Edited July 19 by jazzbo

[Rooster_Ties]

3 hours ago, HutchFan said:

Two Vanguard sets and two V-Disc sets = Four.

Ah, I’d overlooked that there were two separate V-Disc sets — thx!!

[Brad]

Two sets of each? Seems more than necessary. 

[JSngry]

5 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

At one time possession of them was strictly prohibited and they would severely punish service men who were found to have brought back some of the disks, as I remember. 

Does this in any way represent "Public Domain"? No? Didn't think so...

So what changed? When, if ever, was this legally declared, that V-Discs are Public Domain?

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Does this in any way represent "Public Domain"? No? Didn't think so...

So what changed? When, if ever, was this legally declared, that V-Discs are Public Domain?

Well they were broadcast to the armed forces (and incidentally to the public) about 80 years ago.  Was there ever even a copyright holder for these?  I kind of doubt it.  And if there was an owner did they renew the copyright? They were supposed to be destroyed.  No idea but they appear to be, de facto, in the public domain now.

Interesting reference work: https://www.colorado.edu/amrc/sites/default/files/attached-files/v-discs.pdf

Edited July 20 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Brad]

As a rule works created by a government employee is not subject to copyright rules because any work created by the government is not subject to copyright protection. However, if the government contracts with a third party to make a work for it, the work is subject to copyright protection. 

[JSngry]

{quote}He reached agreements with the AFM and AFRA (American Federation of Radio Artists) regarding waiver of all fees and royalties for musicians’ services and copyright payments for the published music. 

In return for these concessions, the Army agreed that V-Discs would be for the use of military personnel only and no commercial exploitation would be made of the recordings. These agreements made it possible for the Army to afford the V-Disc program by focusing funds for processing and pressing records. Similar agreements were reached by AFRS regarding their radio programs.{/quote}

Ok, that's a mess ...thanks phone .. 

[Brad]

https://www.dennismspragg.com/v-discs/

If the government can’t hold copyright and the musicians waived, in effect, copyright protection, then it stands to reason there was no copyright and these recordings were in the public domain. 

Edited July 20 by Brad

[JSngry]

But point just being, the waiving of all payments, not just copyright, was done on a highly conditional basis, and there was no apparent expiration date of those terms.

So what has changed? It's a simple question and it should have a simple answer.

BTW, the same terms seem to have been applied to the AFRS Jubilee shows 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

https://archive.org/details/AfrsJubilee

[JSngry]

11 minutes ago, Brad said:

https://www.dennismspragg.com/v-discs/

If the government can’t hold copyright and the musicians waived, in effect, copyright protection, then it stands to reason there was no copyright and these recordings were in the public domain. 

Except...all these waivers were granted solely for one specific and limited use. If I'm understanding this correctly, the same waivers were not being ceded for any other/future use. Actually, it sounds like there were specifically to be no other/future use!

Is all of the actual contractual documentation still alive in some government archive somewhere? In Palo Alto maybe? 

Two things are clear to me -

1. I'm getting these sets. Fuck dead people's contracts!!!

2. There's probably a good reason why no major American label has touched this stuff (or the Jubilee broadcasts) for 80 years. 

28 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

https://archive.org/details/AfrsJubilee

And that's totally free!!!

[Fred]

Great news.

[Brad]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Except...all these waivers were granted solely for one specific and limited use. If I'm understanding this correctly, the same waivers were not being ceded for any other/future use. Actually, it sounds like there were specifically to be no other/future use!

Is all of the actual contractual documentation still alive in some government archive somewhere? In Palo Alto maybe? 

Two things are clear to me -

1. I'm getting these sets. Fuck dead people's contracts!!!

2. There's probably a good reason why no major American label has touched this stuff (or the Jubilee broadcasts) for 80 years. 

And that's totally free!!!

I’m not sure of the answer but it was a long time ago and if either party had wanted to do something, that time is long past and no one cares anymore.

The Jubilee would be interesting. I have a Spotlite record that has some Jubilees on it. 

[jazzbo]

There is a whole series of Jubilee shows out on cd from Storyville Records. Interesting material!

 

https://storyvillerecords.com/?s=Jubilee+Shows&post_type=product&dgwt_wcas=1

 

[mikeweil]

HEP in England also issued  several discs of AFRS Jubilee material, West Coast big bands, Raeburn, Benny Carter etc. Always good music.

There was a discography by Rainer E. Lotz  and  Ulrich Neuert, published in 1985 by Norbert Ruecker. 

Edited July 20 by mikeweil

[Big Beat Steve]

Like Dan Gould, I wonder how much of the Vanguard sessions really is new (or how many unissued tracks - or sessions - there are out there at all). In fact, given the almost countless reissue repackagings from the 70s and 80s, I've found the Vanguard sessions are among those where you are most liable to end up with duplicate purchases because there were sooo many different reissues from the US, UK, France and elsewhere (that never were exceedingly rare on the secondhand market) that it is almost impossible to remember exactly the contents of which cover artwork equal those of LPs with totally different cover artwork.

As for the V-Discs, it would be nice if they wouldn't limit their (either small group or big band) session packagings to the obvious "name" candidates or usual suspects. The likes of Phil Moore or Loumell Morgan et al. deserve some reissue action too. (Though I really wouldn't hedge my bets as to how far they will venture into THAT territory ...)