Going Mono....

[Pim]

I was wondering if any of you guys use a special mono cartridge for your mono records? Is it worth while saving up money and invest in one or are the differences bearably noticable? And if you have one, do you have an extra record player for it?

[hopkins]

I had the same question as you. I recently decided to purchase an Ortofon 2M mono cartridge for my Technics SL-1200 GR turntable. I was really surprised by the positive difference it made. Hard to describe - just better sound

[mjzee]

8 minutes ago, hopkins said:

I had the same question as you. I recently decided to purchase an Ortofon 2M mono cartridge for my Technics SL-1200 GR turntable. I was really surprised by the positive difference it made. Hard to describe - just better sound

Do you keep it in it's own shell and just swap out the shells when you want to use it?

[hopkins]

8 minutes ago, mjzee said:

Do you keep it in it's own shell and just swap out the shells when you want to use it?

Yes. I have two shells. I do have to adjust the weight of the tonearm, but I may be able to optimize that a little by adjusting the position of the cartridges - am a beginner in all this...

[Teasing the Korean]

A mono cartridge is no different from having a mono button on your amp.

If you don't have a mono button on your amp, you can get an inexpensive Y converter for playing mono LPs.

If you have a true mono stylus, it is good only for mono LPs from the pre-stereo era, as later mono LPs used a stereo groove configuration.  

 

Edited June 30 by Teasing the Korean

[hopkins]

27 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

A mono cartridge is no different from having a mono button on your amp.

If you don't have a mono button on your amp, you can get an inexpensive Y converter for playing mono LPs.

If you have a true mono stylus, is good only for LPs from the pre-stereo era, as later mono LPs used a stereo groove configuration.  

 

Yes. During the late 50s, a lot of albums were also issued both in stereo and mono, and I always prefer listening to mono - in fact I often listen to them on a single speaker. I think the switch was gradual.

An example of an album I recently bought: Hodges, Blues-a-Plenty, from 1958. I believe it is true mono.

Edited June 30 by hopkins

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, hopkins said:

During the 50s, a lot of albums were also issued both in stereo and mono, and I always prefer listening to mono - in fact I often listen to them on a single speaker. I think the switch was gradual.

An example of an album I recently bought: Hodges, Blues-a-Plenty, from 1958. I believe it is true mono.

Oh, I prefer mono right up until the end.  I almost always buy a mono copy of an album over a stereo, all other factors being equal.

When you say "true mono," Keep in mind that an album could have been recorded in mono or mixed for mono, but still have stereo groove configurations.  This was the case with mono LPs dating from the mono/stereo era, roughly 1958-68 (in the US).  But mono LPs pre-1958 have different groove configurations.  So, if you have Sinatra's Wee Small Hours LP with dark grey labels, it is likely cut with mono grooves.  But if you have a mono copy of the same LP with the Capitol rainbow label, it is pressed with stereo-compatible grooves.  

 

[hopkins]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Oh, I prefer mono right up until the end.  I almost always buy a mono copy of an album over a stereo, all other factors being equal.

When you say "true mono," Keep in mind that an album could have been recorded in mono or mixed for mono, but still have stereo groove configurations.  This was the case with mono LPs dating from the mono/stereo era, roughly 1958-68 (in the US).  But mono LPs pre-1958 have different groove configurations.  So, if you have Sinatra's Wee Small Hours LP with dark grey labels, it is likely cut with mono grooves.  But if you have a mono copy of the same LP with the Capitol rainbow label, it is pressed with stereo-compatible grooves.  

 

Understood. 

[Stonewall15]

What is the effect of playing a stereo LP with the mono button pushed?

[Teasing the Korean]

28 minutes ago, Stonewall15 said:

What is the effect of playing a stereo LP with the mono button pushed?

It depends on how the stereo album is mixed and if it is in phase.  

Generally, what happens is that whatever is mixed in the center is increased by about 6 dB relative to what is placed on the left or right.  So, this can a be a good or bad thing, or negligible, depending on the particulars.  

Most Blue Note stereo albums are IMO improved when you play them back in mono, because RVG made the mono albums from the stereo tapes, and set the levels so that the stereo would collapse well to mono.

[hopkins]

Here's a forum discussion in which you can read that mono cutting heads were in use for all pressings labeled as "mono" until 1968 (that is how I interpret it):

https://www.audionirvana.org/forum/the-audio-vault/analog-playback/94972-steve-hoffman-on-playing-back-mono-lps

I guess this explains why, for example, mint copies of 1967 mono versions of Hendrix's Bold as Love sell for over 2000€...

 

Edited June 30 by hopkins

[Clunky]

My old Sugden amp had a mono button. A CD copy of Miles' Walkin' became mostly inaudible when the mon button was pressed. I presume the two channels were out of phase and cancelled each other out when combined. I no longer have that amp or the CD

[Teasing the Korean]

35 minutes ago, Clunky said:

My old Sugden amp had a mono button. A CD copy of Miles' Walkin' became mostly inaudible when the mon button was pressed. I presume the two channels were out of phase and cancelled each other out when combined. I no longer have that amp or the CD

If it was rechanneled stereo, that may explain the phase issues.

[JSngry]

When I had a mono button, rechanneled stereo almost always sounded better using it.

But that was LP era.

[Teasing the Korean]

10 hours ago, JSngry said:

When I had a mono button, rechanneled stereo almost always sounded better using it.

But that was LP era.

There were a few different technologies with rechanneled stereo.  Records with mild EQ differences between left and right generally folded well to mono without discernible issues.  But some labels - notably Capitol and RCA - would place one channel on a split-second delay.  This type of rechanneled stereo resulted in phase issues.  

[mikeweil]

Pressing a mono button is not the same as using different cartridges - that is where it starts. I found this article to be informative:

https://ortofon.com/pages/what-is-mono

Or this: https://dgmono.com/2018/04/06/deep-groove-mono-and-the-great-groove-width-mystery/

Finding out how the grooves are cut is the problem. I have a Thorens TD160 and two headshells, one with a mono cartridge with the stylus for wider grooves. Old 1950s mono LPs sound better with it. No mono switch needed, and my amp does not have one, anyway.

[spinlps]

I setup a dedicated mono rig on my turn table (an arm / cart combo for mono and stereo) nearly 10 years ago and love it. I'm considering an arm swap to something with detachable head shells but its tough to see how that would improve what I have now.

Mono is a rabbit hole I've gladly followed and enjoyed. The mono rig hits differently than what I recall from the mono button  I used 20+ years ago. Better tracking, quieter playback, and a natural presence than the button and even, on some records, compared to my fancier stereo setup.

Not often an issue in jazz, as mono & stereo masterings typically came from the same mixes, but 60's Rock releases (see Beatles, for example) often had completely different mixes between the mono and stereo releases.

Good luck on the mono journey -- its a fun one!

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

Pressing a mono button is not the same as using different cartridges - that is where it starts. I found this article to be informative:

https://ortofon.com/pages/what-is-mono

Or this: https://dgmono.com/2018/04/06/deep-groove-mono-and-the-great-groove-width-mystery/

Finding out how the grooves are cut is the problem. I have a Thorens TD160 and two headshells, one with a mono cartridge with the stylus for wider grooves. Old 1950s mono LPs sound better with it. No mono switch needed, and my amp does not have one, anyway.

So Ortofon is making the claim that their stylus is cut to work equally well for both pre- and post-1958 mono LPs?  I don't buy it.

Edited July 1 by Teasing the Korean

[Pim]

Thanks for replying guys. Replacing the shells of the cartridge sounds like the easiest solution but I am always a bit hesitant in modifying my player as I am very clumsy….. 

[Teasing the Korean]

25 minutes ago, Pim said:

Thanks for replying guys. Replacing the shells of the cartridge sounds like the easiest solution but I am always a bit hesitant in modifying my player as I am very clumsy….. 

A Y converter is much cheaper and just as effective.  The only catch is that you would need easy access to the jacks.

[Pim]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

A Y converter is much cheaper and just as effective.  The only catch is that you would need easy access to the jacks.

I don’t think so. The mono grooves are different from stereo grooves. Because the coils of a stereo element are not positioned in a horizontal direction, but at an angle of 45 degrees relative to the movement of the mono groove, a stereo element will not optimally reproduce a mono record. The needle tip of the stereo needle is also narrower than is optimal for the mono record.

Id be the first to admit that audiophiles could be very silly but if it was really just about a button or a cable I don’t think the mono cartridge would still exist. 

Edited July 1 by Pim

[Teasing the Korean]

3 hours ago, Pim said:

I don’t think so. The mono grooves are different from stereo grooves. Because the coils of a stereo element are not positioned in a horizontal direction, but at an angle of 45 degrees relative to the movement of the mono groove, a stereo element will not optimally reproduce a mono record. The needle tip of the stereo needle is also narrower than is optimal for the mono record.

Id be the first to admit that audiophiles could be very silly but if it was really just about a button or a cable I don’t think the mono cartridge would still exist. 

Assuming you are talking about mono LPs from the mono-only era.  Mono LPs pressed during the past 7 decades - including reissues of earlier mono albums - use stereo groove configurations, so a mono stylus is useless for them.  

[spinlps]

On 7/1/2024 at 10:22 AM, Teasing the Korean said:

So Ortofon is making the claim that their stylus is cut to work equally well for both pre- and post-1958 mono LPs?  I don't buy it.

I can't speak for other manufacturers or even other Ortofon carts, but my Ortofon Candenza Mono plays my original / pre-58 Blue Notes, Prestiges, Savoys, etc... fabulously and is equally adept at modern mono playback.

[romualdo]

On 7/1/2024 at 1:54 AM, Teasing the Korean said:

A mono cartridge is no different from having a mono button on your amp.

If you don't have a mono button on your amp, you can get an inexpensive Y converter for playing mono LPs.

If you have a true mono stylus, it is good only for mono LPs from the pre-stereo era, as later mono LPs used a stereo groove configuration.  

 

Interesting thread - thanks for the info, especially TKK

My valve amp doesn't have a mono button so I'll try the Y cable option out of interest

Just a question regarding use of the Y cable (RCA splitter cable) - It doesn't matter which socket (back of amplifier) you plug the cable into ie left or right & will only one speaker function?

[Teasing the Korean]

12 hours ago, spinlps said:

I can't speak for other manufacturers or even other Ortofon carts, but my Ortofon Candenza Mono plays my original / pre-58 Blue Notes, Prestiges, Savoys, etc... fabulously and is equally adept at modern mono playback.

Thank you.  I have read about various mono cartridges, but none of the descriptions that I've encountered have articulated precisely how their stylus handles the two very different types of grooves.  If there is more going on than summing the left and right, I would love to read a clear explanation.  

5 hours ago, romualdo said:

Just a question regarding use of the Y cable (RCA splitter cable) - It doesn't matter which socket (back of amplifier) you plug the cable into ie left or right & will only one speaker function?

Both speakers will function, but you will be sending an identical signal to both speakers.  I have used the Y cable between the turntable cables and phono input on the amp.

I would suggest using this just with LPs and not with CDs, as some mono CDs were mastered with stereo tape heads, and as a result, there can be azimuth issues when these are played back in mono.

Edited July 3 by Teasing the Korean