Early Coltrane (with Miles)

[ListeningToPrestige]

For my book on Prestige Records, I'm looking for contemporary critical quotes questioning Miles's judgment in putting Coltrane into his group.

[Niko]

One article you really might want to have is a Jazz Podium review (in German) of Miles in Toronto, maybe Big Beat Steve can help out... ?! I mostly remember the comments about that great Basie drummer Jo Jones being in really bad physical shape but the whole article is worth reading

[medjuck]

I've never found this in print but in the early '60s someone told me that the rap on the first quintet had been  "a cocktail piano player, an out of tune saxophonist and a drummer who played too loud".  Don't recall hearing that anyone had bad mouthed Paul Chambers. 

[Guy Berger]

40 minutes ago, medjuck said:

I've never found this in print but in the early '60s someone told me that the rap on the first quintet had been  "a cocktail piano player, an out of tune saxophonist and a drummer who played too loud".  Don't recall hearing that anyone had bad mouthed Paul Chambers. 

I think that quote also said Chambers was very young.

FWIW, I don't think Chambers's arco playing is without reproach

[medjuck]

6 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

I think that quote also said Chambers was very young.

FWIW, I don't think Chambers's arco playing is without reproach

And he played arco a lot-- at least when I saw him post Miles.

Edited Wednesday at 12:55 AM by medjuck

[soulpope]

4 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

FWIW, I don't think Chambers's arco playing is without reproach

And rightly so ....

[Gheorghe]

Miles heard exactly WHAT he wanted to hear. He saw Trane´s potential very early and made him grow and grow. And he loved Garland for his Ahmad Jamal thing and his block chords, and Philly J.J. was the best thing that happend to drums during his time, he was the father of them all, of Elvin, Tony, Al, all of ´em. 
And Chambers was also the best bassist of his time, he was the foundation of modern jazz bass. 
So I don´t know how dumb folks could be then, but Miles was right. Period. And for me he had the best bands in the 50´s , 60´s , 70´s and even in the EARLY 80´s.....

[Big Beat Steve]

16 hours ago, Niko said:

One article you really might want to have is a Jazz Podium review (in German) of Miles in Toronto, maybe Big Beat Steve can help out... ?! I mostly remember the comments about that great Basie drummer Jo Jones being in really bad physical shape but the whole article is worth reading

I would have to know which year this is from. I have a complete run of Jazz Podiums from its beginnings in 1952 up to December 1966 (except one single issue from 1965). If it was published later then, sorry, I won't be able to help. I've sold all these (had the issues up to the mid-80s) years ago.

 

Edited Wednesday at 12:42 PM by Big Beat Steve

[Niko]

many years ago, I had your photocopies which I then handed over to King Ubu... that's why I know of the article... it definitely is from the second half of the fifties, some German abroad reviewing a Canadian gig of the Miles Davis quintet with Coltrane and Philly Joe Jones (and probably also Garland and Chambers - but Jones I definitely remember and that should help with the dating). Will have a look at the Coltrane reference to see for more precise times when I'm home... 

[Mark Stryker]

19 hours ago, ListeningToPrestige said:

For my book on Prestige Records, I'm looking for contemporary critical quotes questioning Miles's judgment in putting Coltrane into his group.

See Lewis Porter's Coltrane biography, pages 98-99. Some measured negative comments about Coltrane from Nat Hentoff in a Downbeat review of the quintet's first LP on Prestige. Quotes from Sy Johnson also provide context. 

[Niko]

Looking through the Coltrane reference, the gig I meant was probably in Quebec in mid-April so the Jazz Podium article may have been a little bit after that 

[JSngry]

4 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

See Lewis Porter's Coltrane biography, pages 98-99. Some measured negative comments about Coltrane from Nat Hentoff in a Downbeat review of the quintet's first LP on Prestige. Quotes from Sy Johnson also provide context. 

Yeah, no sources here, but I do recall a number of contemporaneous critical commentary referencing some variation on "ugly".

[ghost of miles]

19 hours ago, medjuck said:

I've never found this in print but in the early '60s someone told me that the rap on the first quintet had been  "a cocktail piano player, an out of tune saxophonist and a drummer who played too loud".  Don't recall hearing that anyone had bad mouthed Paul Chambers. 

 

Via the booklet for the box set of Davis' Prestige quintet recordings:

In his liner notes to Steamin', Joe Goldberg wrote that many listeners initially felt that the quintet was comprised of "a trumpet player who could play only in the middle register and fluffed half his notes; an out-of-tune tenor player; a cocktail pianist; a drummer who played so loud that nobody else could be heard; and a teenage bassist."  

[clifford_thornton]

potential, at least for Coltrane, Chambers, and Philly Joe. I never really felt Garland was all that interesting but it has been years since I listened to him with any level of concentration. My piano sense has gotten better over time, and I might hear him differently now.

[JSngry]

Red comped like a motherfucker. In a lot of ways he was the fulcrum for that band.

[Gheorghe]

7 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

potential, at least for Coltrane, Chambers, and Philly Joe. I never really felt Garland was all that interesting but it has been years since I listened to him with any level of concentration. My piano sense has gotten better over time, and I might hear him differently now.

Listen to the way he voices his chords. I have learned a lot from that. 

 

8 hours ago, ghost of miles said:

 

Via the booklet for the box set of Davis' Prestige quintet recordings:

In his liner notes to Steamin', Joe Goldberg wrote that many listeners initially felt that the quintet was comprised of "a trumpet player who could play only in the middle register and fluffed half his notes; an out-of-tune tenor player; a cocktail pianist; a drummer who played so loud that nobody else could be heard; and a teenage bassist."  

The "Steamin´ album was very much around here in Europe, but with another cover than the original !!! @Big Beat Steve knows more than me about Liner Notes or different album covers I am sure ! 

I think I remember that I have read that phrase that Mr. Goldberg is quoting. But I must admit, my English was even weaker when I was a kid...... but I remember that others had read the liner notes and while listening to a Garner solo (I think it was the one on "Well you Needn´t") one kid exclaimed "not bad for a guy who started as a cocktail piano player". I didn´t even know what a cocktail is !!!! I don´t remember that anybody as well as in Viena, as well as in Eastern Europe drank anything else  than beer, wine and vodca or schnapps made from the usual garden fruits......😄

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

The "Steamin´ album was very much around here in Europe, but with another cover than the original !!! @Big Beat Steve knows more than me about Liner Notes or different album covers I am sure !

Thanks for the kind words but my knowledge of such matters is spotty and far, far from comprehensive. In this case I cannot add anything about the liner notes. My copy of "Steamin'" is the earlier German Bellaphon pressing (BJS 4054) of Prestige 7580 (which has liner notes by Chris Albertson date 1968). This was not the only version released there - later OJC reissues used an earlier Prestige cover IIRC.

@Niko:

Mid-april - OK. But (just to speed up research in Jazz Podium): Which year?

Edited Thursday at 08:32 AM by Big Beat Steve

[Niko]

Ah, sorry, I was in a rush yesterday ... Pretty sure it was 1956... But the article may welll have had a delay...

[ListeningToPrestige]

Thanks to all of you. I guess the Joe Goldberg notes to Steamin' must be referencing the Jazz Podium review. I got Joe Goldberg's Jazz Masters of the Fifties  when it first came out. My first wife had dated Goldberg. When she mentioned that, I told her I'd really like to meet him, but she told me no, he was her friend, and she wasn't sharing. So I never did get to.

I will definitely look up the Lewis Porter biography. Thanks, Mark, you always come through.

Big Beat Steve -- if you can find the Jazz Podium story, that would be great -- but it's not life or death for, so if it's too much trouble..,.

This will only be a couple of sentences in a long book.

 

 

[Peter Friedman]

While I usually enjoy Red Garlands  playing, referring to him as a "cocktail pianist" is something I can understand.

There were many jazz pianists who, in my opinion, were far more interesting soloists than Garland in the 50's.

Horace Silver, Barry Harris, Sonny Clark, Hampton Hawes, Tommy Flanagan, Ray Bryant, Kenny Drew and Hank Jones would be fine examples.

[Big Beat Steve]

12 hours ago, ListeningToPrestige said:

Thanks to all of you. I guess the Joe Goldberg notes to Steamin' must be referencing the Jazz Podium review. I got Joe Goldberg's Jazz Masters of the Fifties  when it first came out. My first wife had dated Goldberg. When she mentioned that, I told her I'd really like to meet him, but she told me no, he was her friend, and she wasn't sharing. So I never did get to.

I will definitely look up the Lewis Porter biography. Thanks, Mark, you always come through.

Big Beat Steve -- if you can find the Jazz Podium story, that would be great -- but it's not life or death for, so if it's too much trouble..,.

This will only be a couple of sentences in a long book.

I will check my copies but probably won't be able to do so before Sunday afternoon. Hope this is OK.
Beyond this, I would also be able to check (step by step) my copies of Jazz Hot (France), Orkester Journalen and Estrad (both Sweden) from that period (I have complete runs up to the early/mid-60s) to see if there is any interesting mention of that "new" Quintet in there (in record or concert reviews, for example). Obviously this will take a bit of time.
I also have about two thirds of the copies of Jazz Magazine (France) and Jazz Monthly (UK) from the second half of the 50s up to the early 60s so some relevant issues may not be there.

Edited yesterday at 06:37 AM by Big Beat Steve

[Gheorghe]

12 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

While I usually enjoy Red Garlands  playing, referring to him as a "cocktail pianist" is something I can understand.

There were many jazz pianists who, in my opinion, were far more interesting soloists than Garland in the 50's.

Horace Silver, Barry Harris, Sonny Clark, Hampton Hawes, Tommy Flanagan, Ray Bryant, Kenny Drew and Hank Jones would be fine examples.

Interesting point of view.

Horace Silver is on most pre-quintet recordings with Miles, especially important on "Walking".
Tommy Flanagan as I think I remember is only on one strage session, when the quintet already existed (with Rollins, I think on Collectors Items)

Ray Briant is very very nice on the Miles Davis - Milt Jackson album. 

Kenny Drew, I hear his very Bud Powell influenced piano on that supa allstar bop sessions at Birdland just at the beginning of the 50´s . 
Hampton Hawes, maybe he played with Bird and Miles in LA in the mid fourties.

I don´t think there is recordings with Barry Harris or Sonny Clark or Hank Jones together with Miles....who knows....

 

[soulpope]

Regarding Red Garland the "cocktail pianist : wouldn't this perception also apply to Ahmad Jamal (at least until his Impulse recordings) .... btw I love Ahmad Jamal and Red Garland is on these Miles Davis Quintet Prestige recordings  just perfect ....

[Gheorghe]

I must admit I am not familiar with the music of Ahmad Jamal, I may have read hundreds of times his name, but my first few Davis LP´s or better said maybe a kind of sampler anyway had some tracks with the Trane-Garland combination, maybe the "Walkin" from the middle period with Wayne, Herbie, Ron and Tony and some early electric. So this was my first info and the first music of the old styled Miles Davis I heard. 
I remember, when I heard somewhere the original version of "Walkin´" I didn´t like it very much, because in my fast youth only the fast versions of the second quinted counted, I thought about the 1954 Walkin as a "lame duck"......dumb yeah, but I was a kid......

1 hour ago, soulpope said:

Regarding Red Garland the "cocktail pianist : wouldn't this perception also apply to Ahmad Jamal (at least until his Impulse recordings) .... btw I love Ahmad Jamal and Red Garland is on these Miles Davis Quintet Prestige recordings  just perfect ....

 

[JSngry]

Miles & Hank Jones were together on Somethin'  Else .