Monk’s best (or your favorite) rhythm sections, and especially drummers?

[Rooster_Ties]

And Is there much consensus around this subject?

I’m not deeply steeped in Monk — but from what I have heard, my intuitive sense is that one of the most important keys to the quality of a Monk release is maybe the drummer.

And my further intuitive sense is that the drummer may have had some (big?) role in spurring Monk to his best work.

Edited May 17, 2024 by Rooster_Ties

[JSngry]

They were all wonderful (although Ben Riley was maybe not always wonderful).

But for the working band drummers, I still get a kick out of Frankie Dunlop.

[soulpope]

John Ore + Frankie Dunlop ....

[Chuck Nessa]

Bu.

[Gheorghe]

29 minutes ago, soulpope said:

John Ore + Frankie Dunlop ....

me to ! this was the best rhythm section. 

But also Shadow Wilson was a wonderful drummer. 

I listen first of all to drummers, so I have heard them all. 

And in Monk´s last active years from 1970-76 his son was a very very good drummer. 

And a highlight of drumming with Monk was when Philly Joe Jones sat in for an obscure and weak drummer in Paris 1969. 

[JSngry]

30 minutes ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Bu.

Did they ever gig together live before The Giants Of Jazz?

[Chuck Nessa]

54 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Did they ever gig together live before The Giants Of Jazz?

No facts, but yes.

[danasgoodstuff]

I'm sure we'll mention darn near everyone he worked with eventually, but in addition to those already mentioned I like Kenny Clark and Roy Haynes with Monk.  On the other hand, I generally love Billy Higgins but don't think he and Monk were quite on the same wavelength.

Edited May 17, 2024 by danasgoodstuff

[ep1str0phy]

Maybe not the paradigm for Monk drummers, but I favor Shadow Wilson. It's wholly possible that my opinion has been colored by the presence of Coltrane on the Monk records that Wilson appears on. Wilson is fleet and liquid in a way that tempers Monk's internal groove very well. 

[jazzbo]

Dancin' Dunlop for me.

[Gheorghe]

1 hour ago, ep1str0phy said:

Maybe not the paradigm for Monk drummers, but I favor Shadow Wilson. It's wholly possible that my opinion has been colored by the presence of Coltrane on the Monk records that Wilson appears on. Wilson is fleet and liquid in a way that tempers Monk's internal groove very well. 

agreed ! 

[soulpope]

When thinking about his Five Spot recordings Ahmed Abdul-Malik ("In Walked Bud" !!) + Roy Haynes also seem to be an option....

[mhatta]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Did they ever gig together live before The Giants Of Jazz?

Although not as a regular, a recording with Art Blakey sitting in the Five Spot Cafe band on 9 July 1958 (Bye-ya and Epistrophy) is issued in The Complete Riverside Box.

I can't technically explain well why, but certainly Art's way of getting things going is very "compatible" with Monk. Shadow Wilson is in the same way (maybe they share a bit old-style rhythmic concept?).  Roy Haynes is good, Frankie Dunlop or Philly Joe is very nice, but I personally find it more strange that Max Roach didn't mesh together with Monk IMHO.  Of course not bad, but something is off.

As for bassists, a solid walker is a good match with Monk. How did it go with Leroy Vinegar?　I would love to hear how it sounded with Scott LaFaro or Gary Peacock or someone like them, I guess it wouldn't have worked. Wilbur Ware was also not a good match with Monk, I think.

Edited May 17, 2024 by mhatta

[Rooster_Ties]

Are Monk’s Dream and Criss-Cross the only(?) studio albums with Dunlop?

Asking because I just heard them for the very first time only a few days ago (shocking, I know). And I was kind of blown away how well they hang together in terms of group interplay — almost like no other Monk I think I’ve ever heard in 30 years (admittedly, only a very random 8-10 albums at most, all the Blue Notes, and a smattering of others all over the place).

And I think(?) Frankie might be the secret sauce that blew me away with these two albums — in part because my hunch is he has such a positive influence on Monk’s playing (which seems more snappy than I’m used to), and maybe Rouse too?

I’ve sort of slept on Monk all these years, but these two albums were kind of a revelation for me on Tuesday and Wednesday — I listened to both of them 3x each over the two days (and thus this thread).

[Dub Modal]

Most of the live Monk I've listened to have either Dunlop or Riley as drummer. Of those sets, I prefer the Dunlop dates but wouldn't say that Riley was weak or less compatible. 

Seems the consensus here is that there's no consensus. 

[John L]

I also have a general preference for Dunlop over Riley for Monk.   But Monk could be relatively inspired or relatively uninspired playing with either one of them.  They both did their job as a good foil for Monk, i.e. someone who didn't get in Monk's way and encouraged him on when needed.    

[soulpope]

38 minutes ago, mhatta said:

As for bassists, a solid walker is a good match with Monk. How did it go with Leroy Vinegar?　I would love to hear how it sounded with Scott LaFaro or Gary Peacock or someone like them, I guess it wouldn't have worked. Wilbur Ware was also not a good match with Monk, I think.

Agree about the sort of "mismatch" with Wilbur Ware (at least based on his standards), which comes as surprise ...

[Rooster_Ties]

3 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Are Monk’s Dream and Criss-Cross the only(?) studio albums with Dunlop?

Or asking another way, are there any other(?) studio Monk recordings with Dunlop besides those two (and the bonus material on their most recent CD reissues) — ??

(And I’ve already been told to get Monk in Stockholm, and Monk in Tokyo for some great live Monk w/ Frankie.)

[JSngry]

[HutchFan]

4 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Are Monk’s Dream and Criss-Cross the only(?) studio albums with Dunlop?

I think those two albums are WAY under-rated in Monk's canon in general.  I think part of that stems from the fact that Monk revisited many of his compositions on the Columbia albums, stuff he'd already recorded for BN, Prestige, or Riverside.  And that disappointed critics and (some) listeners back in the day.

However -- with the passage of time -- it's clear that those two albums, as listening experiences, work REALLY well.  

Monk's Dream might be the Monk album that I play most frequently of all.

 

17 minutes ago, JSngry said:

And, speaking of frequency-of-play, the Quartet sides from this album also get lots of spins in my house.

 

 

Edited May 17, 2024 by HutchFan

[mikeweil]

Drummers: Frankie Dunlop, then Shadow Wilson. Blakey was playing what he always played, Riley was not really an individual stylist, although he really leaned in.

Bassists: They all fit in, as long as they were strong walkers.

7 hours ago, jazzbo said:

Dancin' Dunlop for me.

That's what he was!

[soulpope]

17 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Monk's Dream might be the Monk album that I play most frequently of all.

Same here .... sheer class ....

[Simon8]

Dunlop for me as well, but Blakey works great with Monk (he's especially creative on "Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers with Thelonious Monk")

[Larry Kart]

14 hours ago, JSngry said:

Did they ever gig together live before The Giants Of Jazz?

bu. absolutely! 

Can't stand Cornball Dunlop.

[Milestones]

It's not clear to me just how much Blakey and Monk worked together live (and I did red Kelly's Monk biography a few years back), but I always found they connected really well--even brilliantly.  Art seemed to be the clear favorite drummer in the the Blue Note days, and there sure are some great performances.   They got together pretty often for quite awhile.  For instance, there is the 1954 (I think) "Blue Monk," which is as killer a piano/bass/drums track as I've eve heard.  Art was masterful on the essential Monk's Music album. I also like the record where Monk sits in with the Jazz Messengers.