Milestones Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 This is a question I pose in part because I was very young in the 60s (born in 1960) and became a jazz lover as a full adult and I barely knew about Green at all in my early years as a jazz guy. I greatly enjoy Matador and Solid, which came out many years later soon after Grant Green's death. Then there were the three records with Sonny Clark, which came out quite a bit later yet. So you had this fine jazz side to Green that was hidden, while his releases at the time were more groove-based and often in an organ combo of some sort. Not that there weren't some good records in that mode, but I prefer Grant with more challenging material and sideman like Tyner, Henderson, and Hutcherson. Blue Note has quite a history of holding some really good records in the can for long periods, and as a result tainted jazz history--and never more so than with Grant Green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 Blue Note was a two-man record company struggling to survive, anyone else would've just recorded the organ dates and not let him record so much. I think the question is absurd on its face and more than a little myopic if not out 'n out narcissistic. I'm just glad that he was able to record as much as he did and that the tapes survived. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 20 minutes ago, Milestones said: This is a question I pose in part because I was very young in the 60s (born in 1960) and became a jazz lover as a full adult and I barely knew about Green at all in my early years as a jazz guy. I greatly enjoy Matador and Solid, which came out many years later soon after Grant Green's death. Then there were the three records with Sonny Clark, which came out quite a bit later yet. So you had this fine jazz side to Green that was hidden, while his releases at the time were more groove-based and often in an organ combo of some sort. Not that there weren't some good records in that mode, but I prefer Grant with more challenging material and sideman like Tyner, Henderson, and Hutcherson. Blue Note has quite a history of holding some really good records in the can for long periods, and as a result tainted jazz history--and never more so than with Grant Green. I think it's putting it a bit strong to say Blue Note "tainted" jazz history. They put Grant Green on a lot of records. This was a record label. They made all sorts of decisions based on presumed profitability, personal esthetics, budgetary considerations, etc etc. We cannot hold them criminally responsible for this or that decision about what and whom to release. They gave musicians opportunities. In some cases, yes, they failed to extend opportunities that in retrospect seem regrettable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 And what if those held back sessions had been issued at the time and stiffed? And/or critics didn't 'get' them? Less Grant recorded overall? I also reject the implicit bias against organ dates and other greasy music. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milestones Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 If not taint, then to give a somewhat inaccurate view. You would think it would be a good idea to put out records where McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones are key members. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 (edited) I'm with Dana on this one. IIRC, for example. those challenging early Andrew Hill records didn't sell at all. As for Green's output, the albums with Larry Young are not your typical "organ dates" - they were plenty challenging for the era. And 'Idle Moments', with Henderson/Hutcherson/Pearson, is widely considered a masterpiece. They released him in trio format, in quartet with piano, etc. Green's bad career move (in addition to being a heroin addict) was leaving BN for Verve, and he rectified that later on with his end of the decade return to BN. Edited May 14 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 It was (almost) all very good. No complaints here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 3 minutes ago, Milestones said: If not taint, then to give a somewhat inaccurate view. You would think it would be a good idea to put out records where McCoy Tyner and Elvin Jones are key members. That's hindsight. Tyner had to still drive a cab to make ends meet, even while he was making those classic BN albums. The sales figures on the initial runs of some of the BN records would startle you on how low they were. My understanding is that Tina Brooks' classic 'True Blue' sold less than 1,000 copies on initial release, and that's why his other three albums stayed in the can for three decades. Thank Michael Cuscuna for the insight we have into the BN catalog and the exposure for some of the artists there. 3 minutes ago, JSngry said: It was (almost) all very good. No complaints here. Agreed. the only ones that don't click for me are Feelin' The Spirit and Way Out West, and that's due to my (musical taste) aversion to the source material. I even like the 70's albums on BN quite a bit, and play the heavily arranged ones frequently. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Milestones Posted May 14 Author Report Share Posted May 14 (edited) Well, it was great to have (at the time) Idle Moments and Feelin' the Spirit--and others as well. But there have been odd cases of really good music sitting in the can for 10+ years, with many other culprits besides Blue Note. .....The truth is that so much jazz sells at such low volume, it's a wonder that the majority of artists (past and present) get record deals at all. Edited May 14 by Milestones Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 10 minutes ago, felser said: Agreed. the only ones that don't click for me are Feelin' The Spirit and Way Out West, and that's due to my (musical taste) aversion to the source material. You have an aversion to spirituals AND cowboy songs? What kind of an American are you, anyway?!?!?!?!?!?!?!????!!!!!!???????¿?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 29 minutes ago, JSngry said: What kind of an American are you, anyway?!?!?!?!?!?!?!????!!!!!!???????¿?? Well, that's an essay question, LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 They did issue Up at Minton's, which has some nice jazz playing by Green. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 His first two as a leader on Blue Note were impressive jazz releases. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 Soul Cowboy Guitar is where it's at, pahd! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted May 14 Report Share Posted May 14 And if you're wearing a poncho, you're super hip and ready for anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 FWIW, Feelin' the Spirit and Goin' West are two of my favorite Grant Green albums. And if someone found a tape of him playing Xmas tunes, I'd buy that in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 I think GG was primarily a "licks" player. He had a certain number (not that many) of riffs that he'd recycle in his solos. I don't think he had the chops to be a full-time improvising jazz musician. As for Idle Moments being such a great record, credit should probably go to Duke Pearson. Don't get me wrong: I have most of what GG recorded and enjoy it, but I recognize his limitations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 Truth be told, most jazz players are licks players. The art is in how the licks are utilized. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 1 hour ago, mjzee said: As for Idle Moments being such a great record, credit should probably go to Duke Pearson. No argument from me on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 But does anybody play any differently than usual? Not really? They all had good days, but they all had lots of good days. So maybe the point is that Blue Note screwed Grant Green by not having Duke Pearson involved in all of his records? Maybe, but not really. I will say this, they got great players, picked wonderful material, arranged it well, had it rehearsed well, and then hit what was obviously a good vibe when it came time to roll tape. What you can give Duke Pearson credit for (besides the charts) is not fucking up any of that, which is no mean feat in and of itself. It's its own art, really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
felser Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 (edited) A lot of wonderful records on BN. Idle Moments is clearly one of the best of them, and quite celebrated. The length (an in-studio error if you read and believe the liner notes) and majesty of the title cut, the uniform strength of the other material, and the magnificent musicianship across the board make it stand out even in such stellar company. It's special, not a weak or even mediocre moment. And great cover art to complete the package. It may be a typical classic period BN album, but when done right, that's an amazing pedigree. Edited May 15 by felser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 11 hours ago, felser said: Tyner had to still drive a cab to make ends meet, even while he was making those classic BN albums. IIRC, he applied for the job, but the cab company owner would not take it seriously. But I get your point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gheorghe Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 In my case, during the times before Blue Note closed, I mean when I used to learn about all those great musicians, Blue Note was for me mainly the label where I found the music I was lookin for at that time: Wayne, Freddie, Herbie, Sam Rivers, Joe Henderson, McCoy, Elvin Jones, Tony Williams and my favourite Ornette Coleman and Don Cherry and Cecil Taylor records. So I was not at all aware about the many mainstream dates or the dates with organ, since I just was not listening to that kind of music when I was so young. I discovered Green as late as the CD reissue boom of the 90´s. That was the first time I heard him and I think it was "Solid" with that version of "Ezzthetics" and so on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhatta Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 (edited) My personal favourite BN Grant Green is not the hard bop playing Green, but the funky Green, like Alive!, Live at the Lighthouse or Live At Club Mozambique, Green Is Beautiful is good too. I feel like he speaks his own language on them. And "speaking his piece" is my definition of jazz. Edited May 15 by mhatta Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted May 15 Report Share Posted May 15 My introduction to GG was when a DJ played 'Windjammer' from 'Live At The Lighthouse'. I then bought 'Idle Moments' so I quickly got both ends of his spectrum. Both work for me and both are definitely Jazz. I've subsequently bought a good number across his stylistic spectrum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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