Zoh Amba

[mjazzg]

Article in the Guardian, very complimentary 

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2024/apr/29/zoh-amba-free-jazz-albert-ayler-geoff-dyer

Coincidental to her two days residency at Café Oto as discussed briefly by me and @Rabshakeh in 'Live Shows' thread

[Rabshakeh]

Thanks for forwarding!

Geoff Dyer, though... I somehow managed to get to the end of But Beautiful, and this is giving me flashbacks.

[T.D.]

🙄OMG. I could not finish But Beautiful and am not sure I want to click on the link.

[Rabshakeh]

10 minutes ago, T.D. said:

🙄OMG. I could not finish But Beautiful and am not sure I want to click on the link.

It is your chance to see what a But Beautiful chapter on Albert Ayler would have looked like.

[clifford_thornton]

"Steve Gunn texted me" = way to name drop.

Zoh's music is kind of a simulacrum of something greater, and I don't really get the hype. But she's on the scene and doing what she does and I wish her luck. 

I like Gunn and White a lot, not really here for Shazad or Zoh, but will probably check the album out at least. 

[colinmce]

Pretty silly & inconsequential article that doesn't really say anything much at all.

I've tried to listen to her playing as widely as I can. Sometimes it really clicks, other times it doesn't. Bahkti is a strong recording, and I've particularly enjoyed some sets from YouTube with gabby fluke-mogul as a foil.  I saw her play a truly stunning duet with Joe McPhee a few months ago that proved she has an advanced ability to listen. It just doesn't seem like she puts herself in the position to do that very much right now. 

I will just say that what I heard of the Beings album did not do a thing for me and leave it at that. 

[clifford_thornton]

When I have seen Zoh she makes a ruckus but there's not a lot of depth. She would not be the first to do that and nor will she be the last; my issue is the PR machine that is churning around it all, which seems at odds with the musical content.

[mjazzg]

56 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

When I have seen Zoh she makes a ruckus but there's not a lot of depth

That sort of encapsulates my feelings about her playing last night 

[mjazzg]

4 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Geoff Dyer, though... I somehow managed to get to the end of But Beautiful, and this is giving me flashbacks

 

4 hours ago, T.D. said:

OMG. I could not finish But Beautiful and am not sure I want to click on the link

I have to say I'm intrigued by 'But Beautiful' now. Is it that bad?

[Rabshakeh]

35 minutes ago, mjazzg said:

 

I have to say I'm intrigued by 'But Beautiful' now. Is it that bad?

What is your tolerance for monotonously lachrymose hagiographies of jazz greats?

[mjazzg]

8 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What is your tolerance for monotonously lachrymose hagiographies of jazz greats?

OK, loud and clear. Thanks for the pointers.

[Guy Berger]

On 4/29/2024 at 11:54 AM, clifford_thornton said:

When I have seen Zoh she makes a ruckus but there's not a lot of depth. She would not be the first to do that and nor will she be the last; my issue is the PR machine that is churning around it all, which seems at odds with the musical content.

How much of this do you think is just an “early career” thing?

[mjazzg]

7 hours ago, Guy Berger said:

How much of this do you think is just an “early career” thing?

Sorry, not Clifford but jumping in to say I think that definitely needs to be factored in, I'm keen to hear how things develop

[Rabshakeh]

You'd expect that as Amba grows she will deepen a bit.

At the moment it is a small number of licks, clearly borrowed from Ayler via Brotzmann.

To my ear she didn't have any particular issues with tone or air control. The quality of the "ruckus" itself was good. It was good ruckus. Nor did she struggle to listen. She is clearly comfortable working with others and in different settings.

The biggest issue for me was the limited set of ideas of what to play on the saxophone - She tends to jump straight into the blasting, and then even within a short performance she was repeating herself.  

Hopefully at some point she begins to deepen her ideas and acquires a widening palette and understanding of how to build to the solo and sustain a performance.

In a world where every second younger saxophonist is a Sanders or Coltrane clone, I think that she is one of the few who would benefit from a bit more Sanders and Coltrane in her sound (particularly the nuanced sound of late era Coltrane).

I think that the biggest risk though is falling in with a passing hipster audience and then missing those opportunities to develop, instead sticking with the monotonous fire eating stuff and aging into a Paul Flaherty type. I don't think that it is helpful to have Cafe OTO describing Bhakti as one of the greatest albums of the 21 century. That's the sort of praise that leads to a fall.

That said, the venue at which I saw her hosted an unusually young crowd that night. And the casual jazz fans who I dragged with me loved it and called her "the real deal". I certainly enjoyed myself, even if I wasn't all that impressed.

[mjazzg]

2 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

You'd expect that as Amba grows she will deepen a bit.

At the moment it is a small number of licks, clearly borrowed from Ayler via Brotzmann.

To my ear she didn't have any particular issues with tone or air control. The quality of the "ruckus" itself was good. It was good ruckus. Nor did she struggle to listen. She is clearly comfortable working with others and in different settings.

The biggest issue for me was the limited set of ideas of what to play on the saxophone - She tends to jump straight into the blasting, and then even within a short performance she was repeating herself.  

Hopefully at some point she begins to deepen her ideas and acquires a widening palette and understanding of how to build to the solo and sustain a performance.

In a world where every second younger saxophonist is a Sanders or Coltrane clone, I think that she is one of the few who would benefit from a bit more Sanders and Coltrane in her sound (particularly the nuanced sound of late era Coltrane).

I think that the biggest risk though is falling in with a passing hipster audience and then missing those opportunities to develop, instead sticking with the monotonous fire eating stuff and aging into a Paul Flaherty type. I don't think that it is helpful to have Cafe OTO describing Bhakti as one of the greatest albums of the 21 century. That's the sort of praise that leads to a fall.

That said, the venue at which I saw her hosted an unusually young crowd that night. And the casual jazz fans who I dragged with me loved it and called her "the real deal". I certainly enjoyed myself, even if I wasn't all that impressed.

Agree with all of this

[clifford_thornton]

+1

She may grow into someone interesting but it's clouded by the intense and premature hype machine. There are young saxophonists who are better. Some are now a little bit older than she is, but I remember hearing Michael Foster at 24 or so... he was in another place. He hasn't gotten a lot of press, which is too bad. I remember when Chris Pitsiokos hit the scene right out of college and he was on a very high level, comparatively. Those duos with Weasel vs. Zoh and company = apples and oranges.

Flaherty is awesome, but he's on a very different planet from Zoh. He also had zero cache until he was much, much older and had a bunch of records out (going back to the 1970s). I will ride or die for Paul.

[Rabshakeh]

57 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Flaherty is awesome, but he's on a very different planet from Zoh. He also had zero cache until he was much, much older and had a bunch of records out (going back to the 1970s). I will ride or die for Paul.

Where would you go with Flaherty? I've always seen him as a bit one dimensional, but very willing to be proven wrong.

[clifford_thornton]

I've always liked the duos and groups with Randall (Randy) Colbourne on drums, whether on Tulpa, Cadence, Zaabway (think that was their coop label) or Family Vineyard. They're noisy but very interesting records to me. The duos with Marc Edwards do bring out nuance (Marc having played with Cecil, David S. Ware, et al. brings something else to the table). The CDs with Weasel are fun, including both Dragonfly Breath albums. The Hated Music duos rip but if that is a bit one-dimensional for you there is more to hear elsewhere. The solo stuff is cool too; there are a couple of examples on disc. I also enjoy Orange and Trinity Symphony, his earliest albums, but they are hardly what I would call "free jazz" -- more in the realm of psychedelic backwoods improvising weirdness (cf. Pygmy Unit). I would not go to Flaherty if you are looking for post-Coltrane or Pharoah-esque textural symphonies. He has been doing what he does for a very long time, before anyone hip or unhip cared.

[Rabshakeh]

Cheers. I tend to associate him with The Hated music and similar records so I'll check these others out.

[clifford_thornton]

You might not enjoy them so much either, but he's prolific and they aren't all the same.

I mean, there's something to an artist who just keeps pushing, decade after decade, taking shit out and documenting it whether or not it "sells." I want to know what makes that person tick and I give them my respect.

[mjazzg]

The one Flaherty that really worked for me is the Jumala Crossing CD, with McPhee, on Clean Feed. Not listened to it in years but I suspect it's on the more accessible end of his spectrum

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, that is a strong one!

[colinmce]

Throwing my 2 cents in to agree with Clifford. Flaherty is definitely an American original. I personally feel that the first Dragonfly Breath CD is one of the greatest free improv discs of the last 20 years. 

His two duo CDs with Marc Edwards on Cadence are both great and might scratch an itch for someone who's not all the way on board with Corsano's approach. Fat Onions is another good Cadence title that you could test the waters with. 

Also agree with mjazzg re: Jumala, very good record. 

[Rabshakeh]

Alright. Will give those a go.

[Steve Reynolds]

6 hours ago, mjazzg said:

Agree with all of this

Same here. I’ve seen her maybe 6-7 times. I like the “rock” group with Gunn et al. Great set at The Stone last summer. Gunn was great. Best other set was with gabby, Gunn & Ryan Sawyer. 

5 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

+1

She may grow into someone interesting but it's clouded by the intense and premature hype machine. There are young saxophonists who are better. Some are now a little bit older than she is, but I remember hearing Michael Foster at 24 or so... he was in another place. He hasn't gotten a lot of press, which is too bad. I remember when Chris Pitsiokos hit the scene right out of college and he was on a very high level, comparatively. Those duos with Weasel vs. Zoh and company = apples and oranges.

Flaherty is awesome, but he's on a very different planet from Zoh. He also had zero cache until he was much, much older and had a bunch of records out (going back to the 1970s). I will ride or die for Paul.

Michael Foster is a brilliant virtuoso with a genius level mind. Flaherty is on a whole other level. Clifford and I are of the same view (as it often appears to happen)