Do you consider Chuck Mangione jazz?

[Hardbopjazz]

I was having this very dscussion with someone at work today. He stopped by my desk since he knows I listen to jazz and ofter play CD's while I work. He showed my a copy of Chuck Mangione's greatest hits and said, "now this is jazz."

I guess you can say it is jazz to extent, but he's not someone I'd run out to buy or see.

Edited April 6, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[jazzbo]

I voted yes because:

a) there is room for all sorts of definitions of jazz, and Chuck's lps of the time were closer to it than some of what gets the tag today.

B) I have some recordings done live in NYC in 1986 at the Blue Note that have Chuck and Gap Mangione with Sal Nistico and Danny D'Imperio that are burnin' and smokin' jazz as any one of us here would recognize it. . . so . . . hellyeah that is jazz and good stuff at that.

[Bright Moments]

and speaking of "Gap", check out "Planet Gap" - Gap Mangione's Big Band cd!

it s hot!!

[Christiern]

He used to play jazz, but never well. The Mangione Brothers group was a miniature Cannonball quintet, which is what made Cannon bring it to Riverside. I heard the group then and it was ok, but it never went anywhere, and--in regard to jazz--neither did Chuck, IMO.

[DTMX]

eh-yep.

[DTMX]

Art Blakey thought so.

[JSngry]

If you're talking the A&M stuff, it doesn't feel so good to me, but the guy could definitely play "real" jazz competently, and he put care into the production and composition of his commercially oriented material.

Beyond that, I have no concern nor comment. It's not my bag, but let those that enjoy it enjoy it, and tell anybody that doesn't extend you the same respect to fuck off and die.

Edited April 6, 2004 by JSngry

[Christiern]

I find that people who don't take it beyond playing "competently" are a bore to listen to.

[wesbed]

I blame Chuck Mangione and Spyro Gyra for making me listen to jazz. Chuck Mangione was, once upon a time, very much an important jazz figure to me.

Edited April 6, 2004 by wesbed

[patricia]

Although Magione has legitimate jazz credits, I think that, given what he's done since the seventies, he seemed to have chosen to go the more commercial middle-of-the-road route.

The dreaded Kenny G., who could probably play decent jazz if he wanted to, would make WAY less money if he did, rather than the millions that he does.

I blame Magione himself, but only gently, for going the more commercial route.

It's a choice, I think. We all wish that artists who are capable of playing innovative and interesting jazz, would, but a person has to make a living.

Weighing the alternatives, would all of us choose to suffer for out art, if given the opportunity to turn out copies of "big eyed children", or in the present context, grind out "easy-listening", pretend jazz, for huge bucks?? Tough choice.

Edited April 8, 2004 by patricia

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Based on the Blakey album and the Riversides, Chuck Mangione could play jazz pretty well (though never at the high level of Dizzy, his idol) - but he chose to involve himself in other areas (writing, education, mixing pop, classical, and latin with jazz, some kind of happy happy philosophy too) and I respect him for that, *to a degree*. Not everything that he has done is at the same artistic or aesthetic level. Not by a long shot.

Prior to firing his band with Gerry Niewood, Chip Jackson, and Joe LaBarbera, CM had some interesting things - all done live in the studio. He did the writing, the arranging, sometimes the conducting. Post-Niewood it went downhill very rapidly. But even something like "Feels So Good" has some chord changes for blowing (check the long album version). Still pretty boring and clearly aiming for the commercial, but a billion times better than Kenny G and his ilk. Where Kenny G's source is Grover Washington, Chuck was a contemporary of GW and probably had a better bebop pedigree, if not the organ funk.

Anything Mangione did on the Columbia label must be avoided like the plague.

A friend of mine played with CM back in Rochester and says CM was always the one who had the leader qualities, hustling the gigs, looking for the angles. People have said the same about Quincy Jones.

Mike

[Jazzmoose]

I didn't vote; outside of that one hit, I don't think I've ever heard anything by him, although I've bid on Buttercorn Lady a few times on eBay...

[chris olivarez]

I liked Chuck during the time that Niewood was part of the group. As a matter of fact I thought the lineup with Chuck,Gerry Niewood,Tony Levin and Steve Gadd was pretty cool. Once "Feels So Good" came out I started to lose interest.I tried to hang but I just couldn't. Like Patricia I really couldn't blame him but musically it just stopped getting it done as far as I was concerned. Don Potter who played guitar on some of the Mangione Mercury albums went on to be a mainstay on some albums by the Judds. By the way I can't for the life of me remember what instrument that Gap played.

[jazzbo]

Piano/keyboards.

[chris olivarez]

Thanks Jazzbo.

[Jazzdog]

I was literally raised listening to this music. Whether or not he is jazz of course is really open to anyones personal biases. Regardless, I would say that he IS jazz, in the broadest sense of the term. My mom just thinks he's a genius! So there ya go!

[RDK]

I find that people who don't take it beyond playing "competently" are a bore to listen to.

Playing "jazz" and being "boring" are not mutually exclusive. Yes, Chuck plays jazz (or at least did), but he's not really my bag anymore either.

[RDK]

I blame Chuck Mangione and Spyro Gyra for making me listen to jazz. Chuck Mangione was, once upon a time, very much an important jazz figure to me.

Growing up in Rochester, it was hard for me not to be exposed to Chuck Mangione at a very early age. I'm not sure if I ever really thought of it before, but Chuck was probably the first jazz artist I ever really heard - and definitely the first I saw live.

[Hardbopjazz]

Around 9 years ago Chuck held a class at the Learnig Annex in NYC. The class was on how to break into the music business. Bassically he said, stay away if you want to play jazz. You'll be bumming around for money to eat. He did say there was room for musicians that wanted to play the style of music he was doing in the 70's and 80's. I don't really believe there isn't any room for striaght ahead jazz music.

Edited April 7, 2004 by Hardbopjazz

[BruceH]

Beyond that, I have no concern nor comment. It's not my bag, but let those that enjoy it enjoy it, and tell anybody that doesn't extend you the same respect to fuck off and die.

As usual, you hit it right on the button, at least for me.

[Chuck Nessa]

Heard some earlier and later dates. I never "considered" any of 'em.

[Leeway]

Art Blakey thought so.

Quite likely the WORST Blakey album. If Art thought Mangione was "jazz" going in, I doubt he thought so coming out. I do not know Blakey's entire discography, but I bet this is the only album he cut with Mangione. Mangione has my vote as the worst trumpeter (flugelhornist?) to play with Blakey, and there is no second place.

Oh yeah, I have the remastered Limelight CD (I will say nicely packaged and produced). If anyone wants to buy this fine, hard-to-find, highly collectible (ignore above commentary) OOP CD, PM me!

Edited April 8, 2004 by Leeway

[RDK]

I have no problem with anyone not liking Mangione or thinking that he sucks, but the question was did/does he play *jazz.* I don't think I've spun a side or thought about him in 20 years but I'd nevertheless have to say "yes." Some of these comments suddenly remind me of Wynton's (or was it Branford's?) diss of Cecil Taylor on that Jazz doc, where he argued that Cecil didn't play "real jazz" or some shit like that. Just because one doesn't like Chuck's playing doesn't mean that it's not jazz.

[RDK]

For the record, I don't necessarily believe what I just posted above, but I thought it would be a gas to use Chuck Mangione and Cecil Taylor in the same sentence.

[Michael Fitzgerald]

If you think "Buttercorn Lady" is the worst Blakey album, then you haven't heard "Hold On, I'm Coming" - I like the story that Jack Woker tells about it (posted on rmb 12/31/97):

"I remember seeing Blakey back around 1966, when this was his latest

release. The club was playing the album through the sound system in

between sets, and I saw Art Blakey go up to the record player and take

the album off!"

And actually, no, "Buttercorn Lady" was not the only album that Mangione made with Blakey. He was in the band a full year, staying through several other personnel changes (Keith Jarrett, Lonnie Liston Smith - twice, Mike Nock, Chick Corea came through on piano). The other album he made is the aforementioned "Hold On, I'm Coming" - and Mangione's presence is by no means the problem.

Mike