Why no Horace Silver Blue Note box?

[Chuck Nessa]

I tried to comment on the previous post (Music to Ease Your Disease) and it kept attaching my comment to the Harvey Mandel post. Hmmmm

[JSngry]

Too bad about that Bill Cosby thing...

 

[Chuck Nessa]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Too bad about that Bill Cosby thing...

 

So, do thay play Filthy McNasty on this one?

 

[JSngry]

 

 

[mikeweil]

He had a mission and a message. I must admit I like it, and loved it on the United States of Mind albums.

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

He had a mission and a message. I must admit I like it, and loved it on the United States of Mind albums.

Yeah, me too. I can accept the naivete and awkwardness of much of the lyrics. It is what it is.

In fact, it sometimes got downright weird, like when the ghost/spirit of Duke Ellington speaks to us from beyond:

 

[Mark Stryker]

19 hours ago, JSngry said:

Not at all a great step down in terms of composition, quite the opposite!

In terms of records, though, they are not at all well-produced.

I can make that differentiation, but I get that not everybody can, or wants to. But there are some GREAT tunes in those records (and some not so great). That 1977 live record is worth a listen in that regard.

I hope in time that some ambitious retro person combs that catalogue and makes a record with some kind of project or whatever it is they do today. There is some good stuff there to be had!

In addition to the live recording, there's also this broadcast tape from the same period. Terrific songs and performances. 

 

[Dan Gould]

If we want to get into private recordings (broadcast) of Silver there is a ton out there in Dime/Trade land.

[Mark Stryker]

3 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

If we want to get into private recordings (broadcast) of Silver there is a ton out there in Dime/Trade land.

Thanks. No need to go too deep into it all here. I was just offering up one example that's circulating widely to suggest the relative strengths/weakness of the records as "records" has to be balanced against the live performances that tell the story from a different a different -- and for many a more rewarding -- perspective. 

[kh1958]

16 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Silver and Eddie Harris - reason enough for a box set reissue of the five Silveto albums.

Spiritualizing the Senses is a very good record; the rest of them (all the vocal recordings), no thanks.

[JSngry]

Either way, the strength and charm of the tune should be evident.

[JSngry]

5 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

In addition to the live recording, there's also this broadcast tape from the same period. Terrific songs and performances. 

 

And that's one from one of the OG albums that is none too shabby to begin with:

 

[felser]

Listened to the Live 1977 samples, and immediately ordered it - great stuff!  If only his studio work at the time had been in the same vein.

[JSngry]

It IS in that "vein", it's the same freakin' tunes played the same freakin' way, just with "sweetening" on top.

On top, not inside. No veins were harmed in the making of those records.

[JSngry]

Actually, the only one that really bothers me is the 'n Voices album. The voices were done quite inartfully from start to finish, not sung well as a group, not mixed well at all, just a total slop-fest. Horace4's lyrics are always open for opinions, but I look at them like they are what they are, and I'm ok with that. But the tunes themselves, and the group playing (especially) are just fine, Some of the tunes are better than others, but that's how it always is with all but a very few Horace album of any era.

Those voices are pretty ugly, but if it kills the rest of it for you...take a lesson from Cory Rhodes and don't give up so easy,

The lesson here is that George Butler didn't know what the fuck he was doing trying to make this kind of a record. Did anybody try to stop him?

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

The lesson here is that George Butler didn't know what the fuck he was doing trying to make this kind of a record. Did anybody try to stop him?

The marketplace did.  Those albums didn't sell (I saw them in cutout bins very quickly), and the company went dormant.

[JSngry]

Don't think it was that simple...the New Note Hitmakers got bigger deals at bigger labels. No help was forthcoming from the bullpen. Not unlike CTI.

Bobby Hutcherson also made a series of not-very-well produced records during this time. Him and Horace were the last "pure jazz" artists left on Blue Note...and then there was Horace. Those were good music, but less than great records. They too were all in the cutout bins in quantity.

Not only did George Butler not know how to make a good record, he did know how to run a business into the ground.

Besides, given the marketplace dynamic of that time, if Horace's & Bobby would have made no-frills records for that Blue Note, they would still have gotten ignored. Case in point - Knucklebean.

So much for the marketplace being an educated, reliable arbiter of music. The marketplace don't know shit about music, and when they get it right, it's usually because the music was in the same room with the sociology. And failing to recognize that as we age is not cultivating taste, it's just wallowing in nostalgia.

[Joe]

From "The Preacher" to actual preaching. (Not that I think this is preachy.) Makes sense to me!

 

 

[felser]

29 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Don't think it was that simple...the New Note Hitmakers got bigger deals at bigger labels. No help was forthcoming from the bullpen. Not unlike CTI.

Bobby Hutcherson also made a series of not-very-well produced records during this time. Him and Horace were the last "pure jazz" artists left on Blue Note...and then there was Horace. Those were good music, but less than great records. They too were all in the cutout bins in quantity.

Not only did George Butler not know how to make a good record, he did know how to run a business into the ground.

Besides, given the marketplace dynamic of that time, if Horace's & Bobby would have made no-frills records for that Blue Note, they would still have gotten ignored. Case in point - Knucklebean.

So much for the marketplace being an educated, reliable arbiter of music. The marketplace don't know shit about music, and when they get it right, it's usually because the music was in the same room with the sociology. And failing to recognize that as we age is not cultivating taste, it's just wallowing in nostalgia.

I liked those later Bobby Hutcherson albums (nice Mosaic Select), though you're right, they also ended up as cutouts very quickly.  To me, Hutcherson and Elvin Jones made the last of the consistent runs of good albums on BN, though some other occasional titles (such as the two Chico Hamilton's and the Eddie Henderson's) were interesting.  And I like the Ronnie Foster's, though not so sure they should be classified as jazz (also not sure they shouldn't).  That first Ronnie Laws album is a guilty pleasure for me for "Always There".  But the Silver 'n' series left me cold when I heard it (Being a BN obsessive,I have since picked up a couple of them on Japanese CD's, and they sound better to me, but I avoided the ones with voices on them, which includes Silver 'n Percussion also).   Elvin went off to Vanguard, Hutcherson to Columbia, where they put out OK (but not great) albums, not up to the standards of their later BN work, but no doubt at least the Hutcherson's sold better.  Of course, Butler also ended up at Columbia somehow.

[JSngry]

Columbia Butler bankrolled the Marsalis bloat that fatally bankrupted the jazz department. Not for nothing do I still think of him as Dr. Death.

Bruce Lundvall was quite good at finding that mix between the music and the sociology. George Butler was just clueless about music. Clueless and given a bigass checkbook.

[T.D.]

Does Werner release box sets? 😜 He's mined some of the Silveto material:

https://www.discogs.com/release/25124686-Horace-Silver-Quintet-Live-New-York-Revisited

Edited April 9 by T.D.

[jazzcorner]

The Intense Media 600187 - Horace Silver 1953 - 1960 " Senor  Blues"