Why no Horace Silver Blue Note box?

[jazzbo]

I think the Silver on Pablo is legit, probably something to do with contractual matters Granz set up for rights to the concert material, as there are others such as the Cannonball, Duke, Mulligan et al that are out on Pablo where artists were not signed to a Granz label. 

Edited April 5, 2024 by jazzbo

[Dan Gould]

Thanks for sharing that Kevin and Lon, it seems as though you could definitely be right ... and I guess that the labels that had artists under contract knew what Granz was doing.

[clifford_thornton]

Very interesting about Carmell. He was a strong and highly personal improviser but I agree he was sometimes inconsistent. I've read that he dealt with some "personal problems" that might've impeded his clarity at times. Dunno if that added to the Pep's fracas.

And @Dan Gould, sorry, thought you were talking about Silver, not BN at that time.

[T.D.]

I've previously read quotes and anecdote to the effect that Carmell Jones was "too sensitive" for the music business. That's been posited as a reason for Carmell's relocation to Germany. But I wasn't aware of the Peps story. Thanks.

Edited April 5, 2024 by T.D.

[clifford_thornton]

IIRC, Prestige combined music from the Nathan Davis and Annie Ross/Pony Poindexter SABA releases into one Carmell Jones album. Those are the German sessions I associate most with him, though apparently he did a fair amount of big band work over there as well.

[mjzee]

There was also a live album, "Re-Entry," on Joel Dorn-related labels (first Ram, then 32), recorded by Alan Grant in 1965 & 1966:

https://www.discogs.com/release/9521955-Horace-Silver-Re-Entry

[Rooster_Ties]

Was only vaguely aware of the Pablo thing, and really only the cover art rings any sort of bell (and just the front cover).  Not sure I’ve ever seen one out in the wild, so I never had any idea what label (shady, or legit) it might have been on.

https://www.discogs.com/master/1234634-Horace-Silver-Paris-Blues

[clifford_thornton]

Love the dissonant comping -- as much as I've never hugely connected with Horace records, hearing him at his height is really a gas.

[Eric]

57 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Love the dissonant comping -- as much as I've never hugely connected with Horace records, hearing him at his height is really a gas.

Which one are you referring to?  Thanks

[felser]

5 hours ago, Kevin Bresnahan said:

 You know the way guys in Philly are.

Indeed I do!

8 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

@clifford_thornton @felser

I figured it was obvious in context I was referring to Horace as the last contracted artist on BN until the end of the first incarnation of the label, and that therefore a live recording in 1964 would be BN property and that how it came to Pablo was an unresolved mystery, not that he was a Blue Note artist thru his entire recorded output. I am forgetful, not ignorant.

Understood, thx.

[GA Russell]

Don't know why, but I have always in my mind divided his music into pre-Song for My Father and post-Song for My Father.

I would really enjoy a box of his 1964-1969 albums.

[clifford_thornton]

1 hour ago, Eric said:

Which one are you referring to?  Thanks

the track on Paris Blues that is streaming on the Discogs link. Horace dropping some nice bricks in the pond there.

[Stereojack]

Nobody has mentioned the excellent "Live at Newport '58" on Blue Note, which came out in 2008. and which featured trumpeter Louis Smith. One track had been on a Phontastic Newport compilation. Horace also released "Live 1964" on his own Emerald label in 1984. It has never been on CD.

I first saw Horace in 1965, not long after the release of "Song For My Father". I was totally blown away, and a few days later I bought the album "Doin' the Thing", mainly because it contained the track "Filthy McNasty", the tune with which he had ended the show that night. From that point on I was a diehard fan, eventually acquiring all of his LP's, including his one non-Blue Note release, "Silver's Blue" on Epic. I began to lose interest when he started the "United States of Mind" series in 1970, incorporating vocals, and the "Silver 'N" series, with Brass, Woodwinds, Strings, Voices, etc, all of which were created with overdubs. He continued the "spiritual' themes on his own Silveto label all through the 80's, although "Spiritualizing the Senses" (1983) is a straight ahead instrumental record, as is the Blue Note release "In Pursuit of the 27th Man" from 1973.

 

[jazzbo]

Actually Dan pointed out the Newport release in the 9th post in this thread.

[Stereojack]

11 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Actually Dan pointed out the Newport release in the 9th post in this thread.

So he did. My bad. 🤕

[kh1958]

There's also  Live in Paris 1959 (Fremeaux), and LiveLove Series volume 2, June 1977.

https://www.amazon.com/June-1977-livelove-Vol-2/dp/B00NW6KPT0

https://www.amazon.com/Live-Paris-February-Horace-Silver/dp/B01FUYRA2G/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2ERPSHXU847YW&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.5QlLaDalu4xIyBsVwlBVk5ZkeC9LDoTrVBAMdQ757VA.XvZ2jdJTmSewmL6zxb5zu9MVkCo2y8fUjxvm8QF-NSw&dib_tag=se&keywords=Horace+Silver+Live+in+Paris+1959&qid=1712418500&s=music&sprefix=horace+silver+live+in+paris+1959%2Cpopular%2C95&sr=1-1

 

[RiRiIII]

My introduction to Mr Silver was Senor Blues by Harvey Mandel;

 

[felser]

21 hours ago, GA Russell said:

Don't know why, but I have always in my mind divided his music into pre-Song for My Father and post-Song for My Father.

I would really enjoy a box of his 1964-1969 albums.

Breakup of the Cook/Mitchell/Taylor/Brooks quintet, and entry of Joe Henderson, Woody Shaw, etc., more progressive players is why.  Another divide comes with the United States of Mind releases, which commence in 1970 and that chapter continues through the remaining decade of his BN stay; that break is noted by your 1964-1969 box set (that is my favorite period of his also, but I prefer owning the individual CD's with BN's to recreate the era and aura more fully for me).   To me, the 1970-1980 releases have not aged well, and are a great step down from his earlier work (1972's In Pursuit of the 27th Man is an outlier, stylistically and quality-wise belonging with his 1964-1969 work).   I'm not familiar with his Silveto catalog (was that his own label?), but the CBS/Impulse/GRP albums of the 90's, while "good", are quite retro in style, and not of great interest to me (I have owned them at different points, but not kept them.  When I want to hear that style of his, I go back to the BN's.  Can't own/keep everything).  I'm thankful for the vintage live albums which have leaked out on Pablo, BN, and TCB.  And there is some "grey region" live stuff around of varying fidelity.

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, felser said:

To me, the 1970-1980 releases have not aged well, and are a great step down from his earlier work.

Not at all a great step down in terms of composition, quite the opposite!

In terms of records, though, they are not at all well-produced.

I can make that differentiation, but I get that not everybody can, or wants to. But there are some GREAT tunes in those records (and some not so great). That 1977 live record is worth a listen in that regard.

I hope in time that some ambitious retro person combs that catalogue and makes a record with some kind of project or whatever it is they do today. There is some good stuff there to be had!

[felser]

20 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Not at all a great step down in terms of composition, quite the opposite!

In terms of records, though, they are not at all well-produced.

I can make that differentiation, but I get that not everybody can, or wants to. But there are some GREAT tunes in those records (and some not so great). That 1977 live record is worth a listen in that regard.

I hope in time that some ambitious retro person combs that catalogue and makes a record with some kind of project or whatever it is they do today. There is some good stuff there to be had!

Agreed and understood, I'm one of the ones who can't make the distinction.  The production on the Silver 'n series renders several of them unlistenable for me, so I can't really judge the compositions.  I've never heard that live 1977 recording on Promising Music, have always wanted to, and I still hope to at some point.  Some of the lyrics on the United States of Mind albums sound painfully naive today. 

[JSngry]

10 minutes ago, felser said:

Some of the lyrics on the United States of Mind albums sound painfully naive today. 

They sounded that way then, too.

But that's just where Horace's head was at. And would be for a while...

I don't see hos this is unlistenable, though:

 

 

[JSngry]

 

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 

Silver and Eddie Harris - reason enough for a box set reissue of the five Silveto albums.

[JSngry]

Are you ready for this one?

Not everybody will be, but I can compartmentalize...

 

[JSngry]

Clark Terry & Junior Cook...as well as...

Compartmentalize!!!