The Age of Cultural Stagnation

[rostasi]

It seems to me that if people had their own kinds of personal "culture" instead of relying on what they're enticed to enjoy, there could potentially be a wider variety of enjoyment to share amongst each other coupled with the lack of necessity to feel that some larger idea of culture is "stagnating." We shouldn't be mere spectators or consumers of a monolithic idea of culture, defined by the sweeping brushstrokes of societal consensus or the grand narratives of progress. Instead, we’re all architects of our own experiences looking at ideas of culture - not a stagnant pool waiting for the rains of innovation to stir its depths, but a vibrant tapestry, woven from the myriad threads of personal expression and connection. The concept of cultural stagnation becomes irrelevant under this situation - a mere phantom of a collective mindset overly concerned with grand narratives and the fear of not reaching some imagined pinnacle of progress.

[JSngry]

40 minutes ago, rostasi said:

 The concept of cultural stagnation becomes irrelevant under this situation - a mere phantom of a collective mindset overly concerned with grand narratives and the fear of not reaching some imagined pinnacle of progress.

Hello.

When I feel myself getting stagnant, I don't blame the culture, I just go look for something else to do. There's always something there.

[Teasing the Korean]

26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Hello.

When I feel myself getting stagnant, I don't blame the culture, I just go look for something else to do. There's always something there.

Agreed, but that isn't the point of the article cited in this thread.  

[AllenLowe]

59 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Hello.

When I feel myself getting stagnant, I don't blame the culture, I just go look for something else to do. There's always something there.

well, you cannot avoid the stagnancy; if you are a musician, or any other kind of artist,  the stagnancy becomes the standard, and makes it harder to function except as a rebel, and rebels are often rejected and prevented from working.

[rostasi]

4 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

well, you cannot avoid the stagnancy; if you are a musician, or any other kind of artist,  the stagnancy becomes the standard, and makes it harder to function except as a rebel, and rebels are often rejected and prevented from working.

So, you don't see your work as being any form of rebellion?
I don't hear (or even read) any of your work as anything near
what some would consider "stagnant" (this is precisely why I buy it).

[Rabshakeh]

4 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Yes. And as you posted further up, the trend began before AI and digital culture.

Definitely. In fact that phrase is something I stole from an article in the Wire circa 2004.

Edited March 24, 2024 by Rabshakeh

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Agreed, but that isn't the point of the article cited in this thread.  

They lost me at "wrestling guitars". 

[JSngry]

2 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

well, you cannot avoid the stagnancy; if you are a musician, or any other kind of artist,  the stagnancy becomes the standard, and makes it harder to function except as a rebel, and rebels are often rejected and prevented from working.

I can't avoid getting bored, that's what's normal. But stagnant? That's like pond scum and shit. 

If it's your pond, it's your responsibility to keep the scum away. 

[rostasi]

I'm incapable of getting bored or scummy.

[JSngry]

Oh, I'm totally capable. But it's nobody's fault but my own if I do, I know better. 

[AllenLowe]

20 hours ago, JSngry said:

I can't avoid getting bored, that's what's normal. But stagnant? That's like pond scum and shit. 

If it's your pond, it's your responsibility to keep the scum away. 

but if the pond is huge - really an ocean - the Scum Also Rises.

[JSngry]

Moby Dick

[ejp626]

I think there is a bit of this old man yelling at clouds going on here, but there have also been some serious studies showing that, in musical terms, the hits of the 2010s and 2020s are much less complex than those from the 1960s, 1970s or even 1980s.  There is a dumbing down effect that is at play, and it isn't simply a case of "it was better in my day"... 

What's sort of interesting or ironic is that there is also a real fear of being sued for copyright theft (often wrongly) and that would seem to me to call for more complex, not less complex, songs in order to demonstrate originality.

[Rabshakeh]

I get a constant and irritating advert when streaming on YouTube by a piano player who threatens to teach me to play 400 songs in one hour. The logic being that all these songs have the same four chords, so they're easy to learn. The advert cycles through them, and it is pretty depressing hearing all these identical songs. It's just mulch.

Also to flag the point I made above. It is not just studies showing decreasing complexity, etc, but also the fact that all industry metrics indicate even younger people are less and less likely to listen to recent music. 

Edited March 25, 2024 by Rabshakeh

[gvopedz]

On 3/22/2024 at 2:33 PM, John L said:

Even if you accept that notion that culture today is stagnating relative to the second half of the 20th century, it is still a question as to what is the "normal" pace, ie. the 20th century could have been above normal and now we are back to normal.   

In my opinion, one event that had a significant impact on music during the last decades of the 20th century was:  the invention in 1964 of the Moog synthesizer and the subsequent development of other synthesizers.  Some bands embraced synthesizers, some bands used synthesizers only sometimes, some bands ignored synthesizers intentionally, etc.

[AllenLowe]

6 hours ago, ejp626 said:

I think there is a bit of this old man yelling at clouds going on here, but there have also been some serious studies showing that, in musical terms, the hits of the 2010s and 2020s are much less complex than those from the 1960s, 1970s or even 1980s.  There is a dumbing down effect that is at play, and it isn't simply a case of "it was better in my day"... 

What's sort of interesting or ironic is that there is also a real fear of being sued for copyright theft (often wrongly) and that would seem to me to call for more complex, not less complex, songs in order to demonstrate originality.

it's probably not a popular opinion, but non jazz musicians do not realize how much of the music they admire in the creative/free music scene is simple to play or re-create. I think this is an aspect of simplification which we don't talk about much. I was able to play in that style when I was 16, and play in it sometimes now, but am shocked at how lazy and repetitive so much of it is as supposedly "composed" and performed today. It is the path of lease resistance.

Edited March 25, 2024 by AllenLowe

[clifford_thornton]

On 3/23/2024 at 3:40 AM, Rabshakeh said:

 

I was 18 in 2001, and that was *not* a good year for culture. There is very little between 1996 and 2006 that I think was much good. 

 

Really? I was 24 in 2001, lived in NYC and then Chicago for grad school, and remember it being a great time for music and art. I wasn't watching a lot of movies then but assume there was probably good stuff coming out as well. Can't speak to dance and theater as began paying attention to that world later. I was still active as a musician and friends were in bands, and things seemed really powerful and creative. The decade you mention was fun and fascinating for the arts and I enjoyed being around for it.

Also, re: simplification, simple doesn't necessarily mean bad or good -- not everything has to be complicated to be enjoyable and moving.

Edited March 25, 2024 by clifford_thornton

[Dub Modal]

I had a hard time reading through the linked article. The author lost me early on and as I skimmed through the rest nothing really piqued my interest. For general mood like this I think I'd prefer reading Robinson Jeffers. 

[JSngry]

Also, deterioration is not stagnation. 

[John L]

On 3/25/2024 at 2:52 AM, ejp626 said:

I think there is a bit of this old man yelling at clouds going on here, but there have also been some serious studies showing that, in musical terms, the hits of the 2010s and 2020s are much less complex than those from the 1960s, 1970s or even 1980s.  There is a dumbing down effect that is at play, and it isn't simply a case of "it was better in my day"... 

 

Well, they were saying the exact same thing in the 60s - that rock music was less complex and a watering down of Tin Pan Alley-based pop.  

I think that a basic important point here is that complexity in music is hard to measure.  It depends on the measuring rod that is being used.  If we are looking only at harmonic complexity, for example, then it looks like popular music has become increasingly less complex since the mid-20th century.  If we measure by rhythmic complexity, we will get a different result.  

And, or course, we could also argue about the relationship between complexity and quality in music. 

Edited March 26, 2024 by John L

[JSngry]

When does a plateau begin to stagnate? 

[danasgoodstuff]

On 3/26/2024 at 5:23 AM, John L said:

Well, they were saying the exact same thing in the 60s - that rock music was less complex and a watering down of Tin Pan Alley-based pop.  

I think that a basic important point here is that complexity in music is hard to measure.  It depends on the measuring rod that is being used.  If we are looking only at harmonic complexity, for example, then it looks like popular music has become increasingly less complex since the mid-20th century.  If we measure by rhythmic complexity, we will get a different result.  

And, or course, we could also argue about the relationship between complexity and quality in music. 

Yes, it's ironic that most of these 'the world is dumbing down' narratives are themselves quite simplistic and naive. 

[gvopedz]

If you don't mind another Rick Beato video, here is his point of view:

 

[HutchFan]

On 3/23/2024 at 5:14 PM, rostasi said:

It seems to me that if people had their own kinds of personal "culture" instead of relying on what they're enticed to enjoy, there could potentially be a wider variety of enjoyment to share amongst each other coupled with the lack of necessity to feel that some larger idea of culture is "stagnating." We shouldn't be mere spectators or consumers of a monolithic idea of culture, defined by the sweeping brushstrokes of societal consensus or the grand narratives of progress. Instead, we’re all architects of our own experiences looking at ideas of culture - not a stagnant pool waiting for the rains of innovation to stir its depths, but a vibrant tapestry, woven from the myriad threads of personal expression and connection. The concept of cultural stagnation becomes irrelevant under this situation - a mere phantom of a collective mindset overly concerned with grand narratives and the fear of not reaching some imagined pinnacle of progress.

I agree. 

I'd also add that cultural critiques (usually) strike me as WAY over-generalized -- and that's because generalizations are necessary to make broad assertions about culture at large.  From where I'm sitting, the most interesting aspects of cultural expression are (almost) always expressions of the particular and personal -- not the general. 

From this perspective, discovering and building some sort of relationship with cultural expressions (visual arts, movies, music, books, whatever) is an individual's responsibility.  And that is an existential thing.  It's not served up on a platter.  You've got to make it yourself.  Like rostasi says, we're the "architects" -- and we're free to choose the materials that create meaning and value for ourselves -- because the former cultural abiters/authority figures have withered away.

Of course, it's not all roses.  The "problem" with existential thinking is that freedom -- and lack of consensus -- is frightening to some (most?) people.