Sonny Rollins - Freedom Weaver: The 1959 European Tour Recordings

[david weiss]

8 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I love Resonance and Zev but listening to those samples is very difficult - even on the live stuff someone has added horrible reverb; it also sounds terrible in the studio; I find it unlistenable, and the eq is awful.

Sounds like you are listening to the Sonny Rollins in Holland release. The live in studio radio broadcast from that set does suffer from heavy reverb that to me, make it very hard to listen to. with all the advances in recording technology, the one thing that still has not been invented yet (as far as I know), is the ability to remove reverb, real or manufactured, from a recording. I've had heard all these recordings that are on this new release before and none of the struck me as having too much reverb but I have not heard the Resonance release. 

[david weiss]

This is a favorite of mine and always has been. I've had all the previous single releases of this material and have the 3 CD complete set bootleg of this material now. 

In fact, I ordered the 3 CD set off Amazon and sent it to Zev when he was looking for more Rollins to release that Sonny might approve of and I suggested this stuff so Sonny could, at the very least, be properly compensated for the release of this material. 

In the end, I was not involved in this release at all but early on, I was told that they found a few of the original sources of some of the recordings in various radio archives but not all of them. If Bernie Grundman was involved in the mastering, I have no doubt this material is now sounding about as good as it can possibly sound. I've done a few projects with Bernie and enjoyed working with him immensely and thought his work to be pretty impeccable. 

[soulpope]

22 hours ago, Clunky said:

Aix-en-Provence is really good but was new to me. 

Documenting a mighty fine hour of Henry Grimes ....

[AllenLowe]

8 hours ago, david weiss said:

Sounds like you are listening to the Sonny Rollins in Holland release. The live in studio radio broadcast from that set does suffer from heavy reverb that to me, make it very hard to listen to. with all the advances in recording technology, the one thing that still has not been invented yet (as far as I know), is the ability to remove reverb, real or manufactured, from a recording. I've had heard all these recordings that are on this new release before and none of the struck me as having too much reverb but I have not heard the Resonance release. 

Actually, there are reverb removal programs, though I have no idea how effective they are - note, also, that on those samples I can hear the reverb even on the live recordings, which means some dumbshit engineer thought this was a good idea.

[Jack Pine]

I used an earlier version of this program, but found it made some weird bit-reduction effect, almost sounding like a low resolution mp3. This was years ago though and they may have improved it: https://acondigital.com/products/deverberate/

[clifford_thornton]

I'll probably buy the LP set when Da Bastids restock it. I assume the Dragon LP is not part of it? Have that one already and my assumption has always been that it was legit at least.

[david weiss]

5 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

I'll probably buy the LP set when Da Bastids restock it. I assume the Dragon LP is not part of it? Have that one already and my assumption has always been that it was legit at least.

The Dragon LP is part of the 3 CD bootleg set I have and I assume it's on this new boxed set as well. 

12 hours ago, Jack Pine said:

I used an earlier version of this program, but found it made some weird bit-reduction effect, almost sounding like a low resolution mp3. This was years ago though and they may have improved it: https://acondigital.com/products/deverberate/

Thanks for this info. I imagine they have made improvements and I have not put it to the test yet. We'll see I guess....

On 4/28/2024 at 8:59 AM, AllenLowe said:

Actually, there are reverb removal programs, though I have no idea how effective they are - note, also, that on those samples I can hear the reverb even on the live recordings, which means some dumbshit engineer thought this was a good idea.

Well, no matter how good a program might be, it won't be effective in the hands of a dumbshit engineer or producer for that matter. You also have to consider that a lot of these new programs were not designed to address acoustic Jazz. If they have made improvements to the reverb removal programs, I would imagine the results would vary depending on the type of reverb (natural or manufactured) and the nature of the recording. I imagine if it is a studio recording (where reverb is added and printed) and multi track, one could go to individual tracks and remove or lessen the offending reverb. I imagine it would be harder if it is a live recording in a hall with a lot of natural reverb and just a direct mono or stereo recording. I would have to try it and see what the results are before I could make any judgements but it would be a good tool if it can be used effectively. I definitely would have given it a shot on that Sonny Rollins in Holland radio broadcast. That said, there are some producers who probably would like the reverb or would not think it was enough of an issue to address it. The Jazz industry is usually very slow to embrace change or new technology, always waiting for someone else to try it first. They were very slow to dip their toe back in at the start of this vinyl resurgence and there was a lot of you first attitude until it was crystal clear this was a thing again. It took a few years though.....

[JSngry]

...a live recording in a hall with a lot of natural reverb...

my memory is that at least one of these recording fits this description. It is what it is, so onward, Rollins soldiers.

[bertrand]

14 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

I'll probably buy the LP set when Da Bastids restock it. I assume the Dragon LP is not part of it? Have that one already and my assumption has always been that it was legit at least.

There is a discussion about this on a private mailing list I am on. The Dragon release was authorized by Sonny and everyone got paid. There is paperwork. Zevvers had it pulled from Spotify.

[Niko]

just so I understand it: the Dragon release was on Spotify, of course it was authorized, but Zev and his cohorts - who must have known - made a complaint to ban it from Spotify? Somehow, every RSD the guy manages to annoy me big time, and I don't even buy his stuff (last year, there was the issue of the second tenor on the Stitt LP)

[Д.Д.]

The Dragon album is available on Spotify (at least in Europe): 

 I have this Dragon release and the Zurich TCB one, and they both sound really good to me, not sure I crave an upgrade.   

[AllenLowe]

11 hours ago, david weiss said:

The Dragon LP is part of the 3 CD bootleg set I have and I assume it's on this new boxed set as well. 

Thanks for this info. I imagine they have made improvements and I have not put it to the test yet. We'll see I guess....

Well, no matter how good a program might be, it won't be effective in the hands of a dumbshit engineer or producer for that matter. You also have to consider that a lot of these new programs were not designed to address acoustic Jazz. If they have made improvements to the reverb removal programs, I would imagine the results would vary depending on the type of reverb (natural or manufactured) and the nature of the recording. I imagine if it is a studio recording (where reverb is added and printed) and multi track, one could go to individual tracks and remove or lessen the offending reverb. I imagine it would be harder if it is a live recording in a hall with a lot of natural reverb and just a direct mono or stereo recording. I would have to try it and see what the results are before I could make any judgements but it would be a good tool if it can be used effectively. I definitely would have given it a shot on that Sonny Rollins in Holland radio broadcast. That said, there are some producers who probably would like the reverb or would not think it was enough of an issue to address it. The Jazz industry is usually very slow to embrace change or new technology, always waiting for someone else to try it first. They were very slow to dip their toe back in at the start of this vinyl resurgence and there was a lot of you first attitude until it was crystal clear this was a thing again. It took a few years though.....

I am pretty certain that what we hear on the live recording is added, post production reverb. It just has that sound. It actually sounds a lot like the studio reverb. Which tells me that it was the same dumb engineer.  I am willing to bet the house on it, that this was not just natural room Sound. 

[clifford_thornton]

7 hours ago, Niko said:

just so I understand it: the Dragon release was on Spotify, of course it was authorized, but Zev and his cohorts - who must have known - made a complaint to ban it from Spotify? Somehow, every RSD the guy manages to annoy me big time, and I don't even buy his stuff (last year, there was the issue of the second tenor on the Stitt LP)

seems like Zev can only have it pulled in the US. If/when I get the box I will keep the Dragon LP just to spite him. Ha. I am not really a fan of Zev's antics/vibe (jazz detective gives me the LOLs) though the labels he helms have put out some interesting material. He could be doing more in terms of licensing stuff out that he has access to but doesn't want to put out himself. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

I am not really a fan of Zev's antics/vibe (jazz detective gives me the LOLs) though the labels he helms have put out some interesting material. 

This.

Plus, he gets sloppy sometimes.

[clifford_thornton]

I was wondering about the reverb in post -- I've got to go back and A/B the Ayler set with the Shandars. I felt like the Resonance box really sounded great when I first went through it. Not sure if I have time to do any A/Bing. The Rollins Holland sound is not that great; the Arnhem material seems a bit rolled off to me compared to the rawer digital files I have (and am keeping). Believe I got those from someone on the board many years ago.

[david weiss]

On 4/29/2024 at 8:17 PM, JSngry said:

...a live recording in a hall with a lot of natural reverb...

my memory is that at least one of these recording fits this description. It is what it is, so onward, Rollins soldiers.

I remember this as well. I don't remember which one and while there was a time when the 3 CDs were on repeat for quite some time, it's been a while.....

On 4/30/2024 at 2:02 AM, bertrand said:

There is a discussion about this on a private mailing list I am on. The Dragon release was authorized by Sonny and everyone got paid. There is paperwork. Zevvers had it pulled from Spotify.

As much as I'd like to pile on, I'm not sure I can agree with this. If the Dragon release was legitimate, then he shouldn't be able to do this. It also could be someone at the label trying to do this. Part of the problem with trying to take credit for everything is you get credit for everything, the good with the bad. 

On 4/30/2024 at 1:14 PM, JSngry said:

This.

Plus, he gets sloppy sometimes.

And has alienated everyone who has nipped the mistakes in the bud previously.....

On 4/30/2024 at 5:33 AM, AllenLowe said:

I am pretty certain that what we hear on the live recording is added, post production reverb. It just has that sound. It actually sounds a lot like the studio reverb. Which tells me that it was the same dumb engineer.  I am willing to bet the house on it, that this was not just natural room Sound. 

I doubt I'll ever hear the Resonance version of this, I'm happy with the bootleg 3 CD I've had for a while, so I guess I'll never know if you are right or not. Again, I have a lot of faith in Bernie Grundman and doubt has would do this or do it poorly. Sometimes, he does have to follow the orders of the "producer" but I still think he would voice objections and it wouldn't happen in the end. Sometimes Resonance does things in house (the digital mixing and mastering at least) and they have been known to take a liberty or two.... 

[AllenLowe]

2 hours ago, david weiss said:

I remember this as well. I don't remember which one and while there was a time when the 3 CDs were on repeat for quite some time, it's been a while.....

As much as I'd like to pile on, I'm not sure I can agree with this. If the Dragon release was legitimate, then he shouldn't be able to do this. It also could be someone at the label trying to do this. Part of the problem with trying to take credit for everything is you get credit for everything, the good with the bad. 

And has alienated everyone who has nipped the mistakes in the bud previously.....

I doubt I'll ever hear the Resonance version of this, I'm happy with the bootleg 3 CD I've had for a while, so I guess I'll never know if you are right or not. Again, I have a lot of faith in Bernie Grundman and doubt has would do this or do it poorly. Sometimes, he does have to follow the orders of the "producer" but I still think he would voice objections and it wouldn't happen in the end. Sometimes Resonance does things in house (the digital mixing and mastering at least) and they have been known to take a liberty or two.... 

I actually wasn't suggesting it wss done by Resonance but more likely some engineer along the way who thought he was making an an acoustical improvement. Probably a rock guy.

[Brad]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:00 PM, clifford_thornton said:

I'll probably buy the LP set when Da Bastids restock it. I assume the Dragon LP is not part of it? Have that one already and my assumption has always been that it was legit at least.

The LP set is RSD only so they’re not likely to get any in. However, RSD Market has several copies and I’m sure there are plenty on Discogs. 

[soulpope]

On 4/30/2024 at 11:02 AM, Д.Д. said:

I have this Dragon release and the Zurich TCB one, and they both sound really good to me, not sure I crave an upgrade.   

Same here ....

[Clunky]

I think the sound on the RSD set is slightly better compared to the Dragon LP. Frankfurt sounds well balanced but as rough as boots I've heard. The Swiss date is the same as the TCB CD. The Aix set is new to me and sounds excellent and it's worth it for that alone. Is Zev the new Orrin Keepnews..?

[ejp626]

I was just at a store in Hamilton of all places that had one copy of this vinyl box set.  As well as one copy of the earlier Rollins in Holland.  With the exchange rate and all, it might be tempting for someone who is into vinyl, but that person is not me... 😋

They had a few other leftover things from RSD all in one place but none of them were remotely of interest as 95% of them were overpriced LPs.

[clifford_thornton]

On 5/4/2024 at 4:37 PM, Brad said:

The LP set is RSD only so they’re not likely to get any in. However, RSD Market has several copies and I’m sure there are plenty on Discogs. 

Ah, gotcha -- it was listed as "temporarily out of stock" so I thought perhaps they would...

[Brad]

42 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Ah, gotcha -- it was listed as "temporarily out of stock" so I thought perhaps they would...

They might. You never know. I purchased the cd and my only complaint is the packaging. It’s not very good. 

[david weiss]

On 4/30/2024 at 5:33 AM, AllenLowe said:

I am pretty certain that what we hear on the live recording is added, post production reverb. It just has that sound. It actually sounds a lot like the studio reverb. Which tells me that it was the same dumb engineer.  I am willing to bet the house on it, that this was not just natural room Sound. 

I've had a listen to the set again, my 3 CD bootleg set at least.

Again, I don't know what the Resonance set sounds like or what they might have done with the sound. 

As far as I can hear from this set, there seems to be two radio/TV shows (one of each I think) that do have what sounds like reverb added in the studio, The Stockholm (radio show I believe) has a little reverb added but it's not so bad to me. The levels are certainly acceptable. The other Stockholm show seems to be the TV show? That one also has added reverb and while a little more prevalent, it's still within what I think are acceptable levels of reverb. This is a matter of taste certainly but to me, it's not so bad. The one concert that seems to suffer from excessive concert hall reverb is the Zurich show but this just sounds like it is all the concert hall with nothing added. All the other shows, reverb wise at least, all seem to be OK to me. I really don't hear that any of the live recordings having any post production reverb added unless it was added on this new set. The most egregious example to me is still the radio show from the Sonny Rollins in Holland set. That is really excessive to me and it was done in the studio. I've actually heard another show from that archive that we were considering for release but again, the reverb was overwhelming the music.

Listening to all this again, it sounds like there is a lot to work with on some of these shows to improve the sound or make it more consistent from show to show. Some of this will depend on how much of the original source material they were able to acquire and how much they probably just transferred from the already available CDs. I wonder how much more information about the recordings is in the booklet. Still, it's great music and I'm happy it's out here in a more legitimate medium.  

On 5/5/2024 at 5:32 AM, Clunky said:

I think the sound on the RSD set is slightly better compared to the Dragon LP. Frankfurt sounds well balanced but as rough as boots I've heard. The Swiss date is the same as the TCB CD. The Aix set is new to me and sounds excellent and it's worth it for that alone. Is Zev the new Orrin Keepnews..?

I guess it depends what you think of Orrin Keepnews.

Edited May 8 by david weiss