danasgoodstuff Posted January 31 Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 5 hours ago, rostasi said: Today's comments on the subject. Thanks, from the above linked: "There is a long tradition of criticizing Rhapsody. Leonard Bernstein’s 1955 “it’s not a real composition” comment is famous: 'Rhapsody in Blue is not a real composition in the sense that whatever happens in it must seem inevitable, or even pretty inevitable. You can cut out parts of it without affecting the whole in any way except to make it shorter. You can remove any of these stuck-together sections and the piece still goes on as bravely as before. You can even interchange these sections with one another and no harm done. You can make cuts within a section, or add new cadenzas, or play it with any combination of instruments or on the piano alone; it can be a five-minute piece or a six-minute piece or a twelve-minute piece. And in fact all these things are being done to it every day. It's still the Rhapsody in Blue.'" To me this is an argument in favor of RiB, not against it. Edited January 31 by danasgoodstuff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted January 31 Author Report Share Posted January 31 (edited) 11 hours ago, medjuck said: Serious question: What does "masterpiece" mean? From the dictionary I get that it's the best piece of one person OR a great piece of work regardless of who created it. I like Gershwin but does anyone really call RIB his greatest piece of work? I don't think that anyone who has taken a deep dive into the songs of Gershwin in particular or the Great American Songbook in general would take RiB over Gershwin's best songs. I certainly wouldn't. That fact that Gershwin managed to write at least one piece that gets regularly programmed on the concert stage - probably more frequently as part of pops series than masterworks - has given him over the decades a sense of notoriety that I don't think Rodgers, Arlen, Kern, Porter, et. al. quite attained. Blue-haired orchestra patrons will utter the name "Gershwin" with an air of hushed reverence reserved for those who have achieved a particular level of notoriety within "serious" music circles. I often wonder how Rodgers, Arlen, Kern, Porter, would be perceived by this crowd had they done something similar. (Slaughter on 10h Avenue?) I would personally rate all four of them above Gershwin, but in fairness, Gershwin died young, and we don't know what else he had in him. At any rate, I appreciate RiB for what it is: A pleasant piece of orchestral pop music that captured a certain mood and time. I spin it maybe once a year, sometimes twice. But I don't see the point in trashing it 100 years later. Even if it disappears from the concert stage, LPs are readily available at a thrift store near you. Edited January 31 by Teasing the Korean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted January 31 Author Report Share Posted January 31 RiB also launched a sub-genre of film music that we may never have otherwise received. Case in point, Alfred Newman's "Street Scene." Alex North, A Streetcar Named Desire: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted February 1 Report Share Posted February 1 (edited) I should probably let this thread die, but I finally read the article. Except for the "Worst Masterpiece " line I don't think it's that controversial. A couple of points: RIB was not well received by "serious" music critics. (Google "initial critical reception of RIB)" and the criticism is quite similar to that EKE got for Black, Brown and Beige. Iverson criticizes it for its lack of jazz chops-- was it advertised as jazz? Probably it was. I've always thought Ellington really resented Gershwin doing both a "jazz" symphony and a "jazz" opera before he could. Edited February 1 by medjuck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 (edited) On 1/30/2024 at 2:16 PM, danasgoodstuff said: Didn't some of the other songwriters of Gershwin's time & place try their hands at writing extended pieces of various sorts? Maybe instead of putting down RiB a better argument would be to throw light on some of those? Any thoughts on that? there is a whole book somewhere of jazz-types experimenting with long forms in those days, but unfortunately I have forgotten the title; but check out Nat Shilkret, who was interesting: https://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Jazz-Carpenter/dp/B00006RHPG here's the book: https://www.amazon.com/Ellington-Uptown-Johnson-Concert-Perspectives/dp/0472033166/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1X6WL3K7X58V3&keywords=ellington+uptown&qid=1706839470&s=books&sprefix=ellington+uptown%2Cstripbooks%2C71&sr=1-1 Edited February 2 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 I've recently gotten 2 CDs of James P. Johnson's orchestral compositions. They're always interesting, and often enough more. And also often enough...not so much. But maybe some of that is the orchestras' fault. Maybe Never, though, are they cheesy! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 18 hours ago, AllenLowe said: there is a whole book somewhere of jazz-types experimenting with long forms in those days, but unfortunately I have forgotten the title; but check out Nat Shilkret, who was interesting: https://www.amazon.com/Symphonic-Jazz-Carpenter/dp/B00006RHPG here's the book: https://www.amazon.com/Ellington-Uptown-Johnson-Concert-Perspectives/dp/0472033166/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1X6WL3K7X58V3&keywords=ellington+uptown&qid=1706839470&s=books&sprefix=ellington+uptown%2Cstripbooks%2C71&sr=1-1 Thanks, I'll have to check that out. I was thinking more that someone in the Porter/Arlen/Rodgers axis had tried their hand a longform composition, but I could be mis-remembering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 (edited) Scott Joplin wrote at least one opera, Treemonisha, and I seem to remember Eubie Blake had some big project too. The curious thing is ragtime, blues and jazz players often seemed to want the validation from the musical powers-that-were that they thought writing in longer European musical forms would garner. This was not their everyday music or their forte, really, but apparently they craved respect and recognition and this is one path they saw to those. For the most part it never seemed to work. Didn't James P. Johnson subtitle his big project "A Negro Rhapsody" or something like that? After Gershwin, I suppose. Somebody very kindly posted a clip with Gershwin playing his original arrangement on piano roll and I listened to that as well as a few other renderings, since this discussion came up. I haven't listened to RiB in years and now I remember why I liked it so much originally. He takes a very few melodic themes and then sort of runs the changes on them - as you might expect in classical music - but he keeps playing the same or slightly altered strings of the same notes while the chord, and thus the mood and emotion, keeps changing underneath. So there is this interesting sense of repetition of the same line on top of changes. As though he is showing you: look how different these same notes can seem with a different background. Edited February 2 by Stompin at the Savoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 1 hour ago, danasgoodstuff said: Thanks, I'll have to check that out. I was thinking more that someone in the Porter/Arlen/Rodgers axis had tried their hand a longform composition, but I could be mis-remembering. Vernon Duke wrote a fair amount of pretty good stuff as Vladimir Dukelsky, but he was a bit younger than Gershwin. and performed 1 hour ago, Stompin at the Savoy said: Didn't James P. Johnson subtitle his big project "A Negro Rhapsody" or something like that? After Gershwin, I suppose. did Gershwin invent the word "Rhapsody"? And there was a bit of a body of work by JPJ in this idiom, not just one "big project". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 I think these categories - in case they already were in use - were not taken that seriously by musicians. I think they never were - I know comprarable examples in Baroque etc times. Much of the problem comes from the (unnecessary?) desire to make judgements, evaluations and the like. Are critics always musicians that kind of didn't find their way into music mnaking? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danasgoodstuff Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 24 minutes ago, JSngry said: Vernon Duke wrote a fair amount of pretty good stuff as Vladimir Dukelsky, but he was a bit younger than Gershwin. and performed did Gershwin invent the word "Rhapsody"? And there was a bit of a body of work by JPJ in this idiom, not just one "big project". Thanx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 2 Report Share Posted February 2 Keep in mind that Duke was already a composer of some note in Russia before coming here and starting his new career. So he was already knowing that world first. But he kept it good, no matter what world he was in! No dumbing down, no smarting up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted February 4 Author Report Share Posted February 4 (edited) On 2/2/2024 at 5:33 PM, JSngry said: Keep in mind that Duke was already a composer of some note in Russia before coming here and starting his new career. So he was already knowing that world first. But he kept it good, no matter what world he was in! No dumbing down, no smarting up. Vernon Duke studied the Schillinger System when he came to the U.S. Gershwin also studied the Schillinger System. Here is a gorgeous Vernon Duke instrumental composition, though it is not extended. Edited February 4 by Teasing the Korean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 B. B. King also studied the Schillinger system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teasing the Korean Posted February 4 Author Report Share Posted February 4 12 minutes ago, JSngry said: B. B. King also studied the Schillinger system. Tito Puente also. Tito was planning to become a Schillinger teacher, but accidentally became a professional musician instead! 🤪 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Д.Д. Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 (edited) On 2/2/2024 at 11:33 PM, JSngry said: Keep in mind that Duke was already a composer of some note in Russia before coming here and starting his new career. So he was already knowing that world first. He was not, he left Russia still a teenager. He was Dyagilev's protege in Paris (where he spent some time already after having settled in the US), if this is what you mean by "Russia". Dyagilev commissioned a ballet to Duke (Vladimir Dukelsky then) in 1920s. It was not successful for whatever reason - it is really good: Prokofiev - who was in Paris at the time as well - was apparently very supportive and complimentary of the music (maybe because it sounded a lot like his own). They considered each other friends and maintained correspondence for many years afterwards when Prokofiev already returned to the USSR (in one letter Prokofiev called Dukelsky a prostitute for writing popular music for money. Jealousy, I guess). Dukelsky met Stravinsky in Paris as well, but I have not read anything specific about their relationship or about Stravinsky's opinion of Dukelsky's music. Dukelsky was a really skilled composer, and what (little) I heard of Gershwin is not anywhere near when it comes to "serious music" (apologies for the unfortunate term). Back to Gershwin - it was apparently he who advised Dukelsky to change his name in the US. Edited February 4 by Д.Д. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 "of some note" is meant that he was known and respected for the level he was at. This is opposed to "of some renown", which I made it a point to not say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Д.Д. Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 (edited) 12 minutes ago, JSngry said: "of some note" is meant that he was known and respected for the level he was at. This is opposed to "of some renown", which I made it a point to not say. Сome on, please... He was absolutely not known in Russia before he left. He started studying in Kyiv conservatory in 1918 (at the age of 15) and he left Russia (Ukraine Republic, to be exact, it was not absorbed into USSR yet) in 1919 arriving in the US in 1921 at the age of 18. Edited February 4 by Д.Д. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 4 Report Share Posted February 4 Ok then, I misread the Wikipedia article and other past browsings. My bad then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 John McWhorter, who is a Professor at Columbia and a columnist at the NYT came out with a column today. No, Rhapsody Blue is Not the Worst Ethan Iverson also weighed in on McWhorter’s column. https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-362-there-is-nothing-more-dreadful?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stompin at the Savoy Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 (edited) 2 hours ago, Brad said: John McWhorter, who is a Professor at Columbia and a columnist at the NYT came out with a column today. No, Rhapsody Blue is Not the Worst Ethan Iverson also weighed in on McWhorter’s column. https://open.substack.com/pub/iverson/p/tt-362-there-is-nothing-more-dreadful?r=b9oem&utm_medium=ios&utm_campaign=post I am shocked that I find myself agreeing with McWhorter, who often comes up with rather right-leaning um, stuff. Iverson's reply was ill-advised, IMO. Edited February 8 by Stompin at the Savoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted February 8 Report Share Posted February 8 Out Feb. 12, this Tuesday. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Modal Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 Looks like the North Carolina Symphony didn’t get the memo https://www.ncsymphony.org/events/540/rhapsody-in-blue/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 6 minutes ago, Dub Modal said: Looks like the North Carolina Symphony didn’t get the memo https://www.ncsymphony.org/events/540/rhapsody-in-blue/ About This Performance Milhaud: The Creation of the World Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue Copland: Appalachian Spring Copland: Four Dance Episodes from Rodeo This program is part of the "Cliches For the Clueless" series, correct? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dub Modal Posted February 20 Report Share Posted February 20 43 minutes ago, JSngry said: About This Performance Milhaud: The Creation of the World Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue Copland: Appalachian Spring Copland: Four Dance Episodes from Rodeo This program is part of the "Cliches For the Clueless" series, correct? lol don’t get me started on the NC Symphony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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