Charles Mingus - Incarnations (RSD)

[colinmce]

Does anyone have any information on the track “All”? Barring any additional information it seems that this is otherwise all previously released despite the slightly weasely PR copy.

https://recordstoreday.com/SpecialRelease/16363

In fact, with the exception of “Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams” this is just the Reincarnation of a Love Bird album, the “fourth” Mingus Candid album that the new one claims to be. 

[Chuck Nessa]

Maybe All the Things You Could Be By Now If Sigmund Freud's Wife Was Your Mother.

[colinmce]

That was my thought, pretty underwhelming if so. 

[sonnymax]

These two claims: "assembled from rare and unreleased material" and "audio restored and remastered by Bernie Grundman" have me interested.

[felser]

4 hours ago, colinmce said:

https://recordstoreday.com/SpecialRelease/16363

In fact, with the exception of “Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams” this is just the Reincarnation of a Love Bird album, the “fourth” Mingus Candid album that the new one claims to be. 

Agreed.  And if so, this stuff has been around for decades in various configurations.

[Gheorghe]

On 11/20/2023 at 9:09 PM, colinmce said:

Does anyone have any information on the track “All”? Barring any additional information it seems that this is otherwise all previously released despite the slightly weasely PR copy.

https://recordstoreday.com/SpecialRelease/16363

In fact, with the exception of “Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams” this is just the Reincarnation of a Love Bird album, the “fourth” Mingus Candid album that the new one claims to be. 

I don´t really know the chronology of the Candid recordings, but the track "Reincarnation of a Lovebird" is very very interesting and a challenge to play. Beautiful changes, and great with the slow tempo section in it, which happens on more than one of Mingus´ compositions. I love them all and would like to re-perform the one or other...."Reincarnation" would be among the top of my "wishlist" but you got to have time and money to rehearse it, since I´m not sure if every musician just can check it kinda impromptu during a soundcheck, which usually is the case if you gotta play somewhere. 

Another point: Since "Candid" was quite unknown over here in the 70´s when I built up most of my historical records knowledge, the actual version I heard was on the 1970 session in Paris, for the "America" label. My impression is, that or it was played a semiton lower (not starting with G-minor, but with Gb minor, which might be quite a challenging key for many instrumentists) , or it was recorded on a speed a bit too low......

[John L]

I wonder if these are newly discovered takes that were not on the Mosaic box or other previous issues of this music?   Or is the claim of previously unreleased just BS?

[JSngry]

There were a cut or two discovered after the Mosaic that the Alan Bates Candid put out on a CD.

"Previously unreleased" is a pretty loophole-y loophole, because it applies to every recording at one point. So what we want to know here is previously unreleased until when? 

[romualdo]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

There were a cut or two discovered after the Mosaic that the Alan Bates Candid put out on a CD.

I think you may be referring to the two extra tracks added to the Mosaic CD version ie alts of Body & Soul Plus Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams (The original Mosaic Candid LP box omitted these). The Mosaic CD version appears to have all of the tracks on the individual Candid CD releases AFAIK - omits some Newport Rebels  & Candid Dolphy tracks that don't include Mingus. The more recent Candid/Solid Japanese CD included the 45 edited versions of Folk Forms #1 & Original Faubus Fables.

[medjuck]

That was the first Mosaic box I ever bought.  IIRC it was one of their first cd boxes. 

[romualdo]

30 minutes ago, medjuck said:

That was the first Mosaic box I ever bought.  IIRC it was one of their first cd boxes. 

same here, back in 1993

Yes, there was an extra insert page for the CD version plus the extra two titles not on vinyl

Edited November 23, 2023 by romualdo

[Gheorghe]

2 hours ago, romualdo said:

I think you may be referring to the two extra tracks added to the Mosaic CD version ie alts of Body & Soul Plus Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams (The original Mosaic Candid LP box omitted these). The Mosaic CD version appears to have all of the tracks on the individual Candid CD releases AFAIK - omits some Newport Rebels  & Candid Dolphy tracks that don't include Mingus. The more recent Candid/Solid Japanese CD included the 45 edited versions of Folk Forms #1 & Original Faubus Fables.

Because you mentioned the Newport Rebels: 

I got it two years ago from my wife and I was astonished it´s such a thick cover, until I discovered it had all other Mingus dates of that period , I mean the cover photo in colour shows Mingus at Newport, and on the inner Sleeve is those other two records I had not known, one is the one that has Fables of Faubus on it, and I think Folk Forms and  What Love. And the other has Mingus dressed in a more British style and I think it has that "All the Things ...... something with Sigmond Freud...." and "Hellview from Bellevue" , 
I had not heard those before. 
But Fables of Faubus is at such a slow pace. I heard it live in the late seventies and it was much more dramatic, and until then I had heard it on the Paris Live with Dolphy, which I also like much more than the version on that Candid Session. 

The "What Love" I heard on a live thing I think from Antibes France, but other than the hot stuff of "Wendesday Night Prayer Meeting" etc, , the Audience does not seem to like "What Love", they even booed the performance as it seems you can hear. 

[romualdo]

10 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

The "What Love" I heard on a live thing I think from Antibes France, but other than the hot stuff of "Wendesday Night Prayer Meeting" etc, , the Audience does not seem to like "What Love", they even booed the performance as it seems you can hear. 

Just listened to that track & you're correct - it does sound like booing & the clapping is sparse when compared to the other live titles. Why?? was Dolphy's soloing too avant for the crowd

Edited November 23, 2023 by romualdo

[Gheorghe]

On 11/23/2023 at 8:21 AM, romualdo said:

Just listened to that track & you're correct - it does sound like booing & the clapping is sparse when compared to the other live titles. Why?? was Dolphy's soloing too avant for the crowd

I´m not sure. I think French audiences were hip enough to dig Dolphy , but that piece somehow "doesn´t have it" . I mean Mingus could bring the music out to be a liink between straight ahead and "avantgarde" but it had to cook more than "What Love". Listen to "Fable of Faubus" four years later in Paris, they love it. And it´s also "difficult" for more conservative ears with all those atonality in Dolphys solos and in the chords, and has all them changes of tempo, but "What Love" somehow sounds more like western 20th century classic chamber music than "Jazz".......

[JSngry]

"What Love" is just an expansion/extrapolation of "What Is This Thing Called Love". 

[Gheorghe]

On 11/24/2023 at 4:36 PM, JSngry said:

"What Love" is just an expansion/extrapolation of "What Is This Thing Called Love". 

Well sure I know that.  But it´s something with that piece that just doesn´t open it for me. 
Somehow it sounds more abstract, it´s the same with some 1954 recordings I heard of Mingus, somehow they don´t move me, it sounds more "cold" for my ears. 

And I mean, I wouldn´t perform it. On the other hand, I ´m  sure I will include "Love Bird" for a live gig......
By the way there was another thing based on "What Is This Thing Called Love" done by Mingus, I think it was on the UCLA 1965 performance, not one of my favourite recordings, it is titled something like "Ode to Diz and Bird" and my have some strong moments, but the "Ode to Diz and Bird" that I like most is that "Parkeriana" with a collage of Dizzy´s "Ow" and a potpourrie of Bird and Diz songs in the bridge, most impressive the "If I should loose you" section, where Dolphy really sounds very Birdlike. That´s a wonderful thing with all them tempo changes, and all that power. The "UCLA" performance, not the played music nor the compositions are as strong as "Townhall April 1964",  "The Great Concert of Mingus", "Right Now" "Mingus at Monterey" and "My Favourite Quintet" ......, I think this was a very very creative period.....

[romualdo]

The Incarnations LP is up on Discogs

https://www.discogs.com/release/29009986-Charles-Mingus-Incarnations

4 of the 5 tracks match with previous releases (Mosaic box & individual CDs)

"All The Things You Are...." (All) runs at 04:51 whereas the Mosaic version runs at 08:33 - has it been edited for the LP release or is it another take/version?

Why are Hammerstein/Kern given composer credits - based on this it may be the actual original composition rather than "All The Things You Could Be Now...."

If so, it would then be a new previously unreleased track. The original LP credits to Charles Mingus Presents (and the Candid Mosaic) have Mingus as the composer to "All The Things You Could Be Now..."  So, what's with the Hammerstein/Kern credit suddenly appearing on this LP - this could support that it's a new track.

Someone is going to have to listen to the track & compare

[Gheorghe]

6 hours ago, romualdo said:

The Incarnations LP is up on Discogs

https://www.discogs.com/release/29009986-Charles-Mingus-Incarnations

4 of the 5 tracks match with previous releases (Mosaic box & individual CDs)

"All The Things You Are...." (All) runs at 04:51 whereas the Mosaic version runs at 08:33 - has it been edited for the LP release or is it another take/version?

Why are Hammerstein/Kern given composer credits - based on this it may be the actual original composition rather than "All The Things You Could Be Now...."

If so, it would then be a new previously unreleased track. The original LP credits to Charles Mingus Presents (and the Candid Mosaic) have Mingus as the composer to "All The Things You Could Be Now..."  So, what's with the Hammerstein/Kern credit suddenly appearing on this LP - this could support that it's a new track.

Someone is going to have to listen to the track & compare

Well, "All the Things You Are" I think is standard material that Mingus would play as all musicians I know sometimes do it, mostly when somebody is invited to sit in. 

Actually, Mingus did it on that sets of Mingus at Bohemia if I remember, it was titled "All the Things You Are in C sharp" though it´s not p l a y e d in C sharp, it´s only the intro, where they use the thing that Rahmaninov composed for a piano concert. 

[Steve Gray]

The sleeve notes, which can be seen on Discogs, clearly state that it is unreleased 🙂

It's by the larger group that appears on MDM and Lock Em Up 

[kh1958]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:51 PM, romualdo said:

The Incarnations LP is up on Discogs

https://www.discogs.com/release/29009986-Charles-Mingus-Incarnations

4 of the 5 tracks match with previous releases (Mosaic box & individual CDs)

"All The Things You Are...." (All) runs at 04:51 whereas the Mosaic version runs at 08:33 - has it been edited for the LP release or is it another take/version?

Why are Hammerstein/Kern given composer credits - based on this it may be the actual original composition rather than "All The Things You Could Be Now...."

If so, it would then be a new previously unreleased track. The original LP credits to Charles Mingus Presents (and the Candid Mosaic) have Mingus as the composer to "All The Things You Could Be Now..."  So, what's with the Hammerstein/Kern credit suddenly appearing on this LP - this could support that it's a new track.

Someone is going to have to listen to the track & compare

I have the record. All is not All the Things You Could be by Now if... It is previously unreleased.

[romualdo]

9 hours ago, kh1958 said:

I have the record. All is not All the Things You Could be by Now if... It is previously unreleased.

Thanks, will pick up the CD version once it's released

[hbbfam]

On 11/22/2023 at 9:51 PM, romualdo said:

I think you may be referring to the two extra tracks added to the Mosaic CD version ie alts of Body & Soul Plus Wrap Your Troubles In Dreams (The original Mosaic Candid LP box omitted these). The Mosaic CD version appears to have all of the tracks on the individual Candid CD releases AFAIK - omits some Newport Rebels  & Candid Dolphy tracks that don't include Mingus. The more recent Candid/Solid Japanese CD included the 45 edited versions of Folk Forms #1 & Original Faubus Fables.

I have this release which presumably is the same as the Candid Box:

https://www.discogs.com/release/4222714-Charles-Mingus-The-Complete-1960-Nat-Hentoff-Sessions

[felser]

1 hour ago, hbbfam said:

I have this release which presumably is the same as the Candid Box:

https://www.discogs.com/release/4222714-Charles-Mingus-The-Complete-1960-Nat-Hentoff-Sessions

I also own that one, very well done.

[hbbfam]

1 hour ago, felser said:

I also own that one, very well done.

Duplicate of mosaic box? 

[felser]

6 hours ago, hbbfam said:

Duplicate of mosaic box? 

Mosaic contents + 2 additional tracks.  1/5 the price.