Ron Carter´s style

[Gheorghe]

Hello Friends. 

As early as in the very beginnings of my live long love for jazz , 50 years ago one of the early figures I heard on albums or saw live was Ron Carter. I don´t know if I saw Mingus first and Ron later or vice versa, but it was very interesting for me to compare Ron´s style with others. 
Let´s say, the post war bass masters like Ray Brown, Oscar Pettiford, Paul Chambers and of course Mingus had horn like phrases when they did a solo. Paul could play lines that were deeply rooted in be bop and he excelled on Parker compositions like "Dexterity" or "Ah-Leu-Cha" or "Chasin´ the Bird" and played it like a horn, fantastic. 
Same with Mingus, no one before had played solo on such difficult ballads like "Sophisticated Lady" with such dramatic sense. 

And Ron Carter, well he had such a strong sound you could feel it in your belly so strong it was. Like all the stuff he played as a sideman or leader from a then contemporanous label "Milestone Records" . 
But his solos were more oriented on the bass notes, he didn´t use speed like the former mentioned bassists, he used space and brought some new sounds to the bass, like his trade mark glissandos, or the playing more notes with just pluggin the string only one time. And some of his solos were more diatonic than chromatic I think. 

And he did it with such ease ! A fascinating figure, long, tall. 

Another trademark of him seemed to be the use of the contra C . First I had thought he uses a 5 string bass which has the contra C string and it took me time to find out that he used an extension for the deepest string that´s the deep E. 

Another thing I observed all the years was his use of decimes. 

And a secret must have been his sound. Never found out what pick up he used to produce that specific sound you hear let´s say on the VSOP albums and which I also witnessed live. 

I hope I get some answers from you, from folks who also like Ron Carter. 

P.S.: I think I never was really a fan of the piccolo bass stuff, I refer exclusivly to his playing on the regular bass . 

[sidewinder]

No answers to your question but I am on my way by train to see Ron's sellout London performance tonight !

Never seen him live before so should be good.

[Daniel A]

Ron Carter's sound on the CTI albums (literally hundreds of them) is unique and his playing is terrific. Obviously he is using a pickup, and the sound anything but "acoustic" but it sounds so much better than how most other basist came out in those days.

Not sure whether that is thanks to Rudy Van Gelder, Creed Taylor, Ron Carter himself - or all of them - but in addition, the bass is always way up in the mix without ever sounding out of balance. 

CTI albums featuring straight ahead grooves are also very instructive if one wants to study Carter's wonderful lines with their sometimes unexpected intervals, always rhythmically and harmonically inventive and with perfect timing.

I am not especially attracted to Carter as a soloist and I tend to avoid anything that features piccolo bass. But as a rhythm section player is among the very best in my opinion.

I have played this cut 5 or six times during the last days, just because I am so captivated by Carter's bass lines; 15 minutes of sustained inventiveness.

 

 

[Guy Berger]

Maybe a mistake but the adjective I mentally attach to post-1970 Ron Carter is “boring”

[Rooster_Ties]

I’ve recently been spinning some Andrew Hill, and I’d completely forgotten that Carter is on basically 5(!) different Hill sessions:

1. Grass Roots

2. Passing Ships

3. the 2 sessions with Tolliver on disc one of the Select (basically one album)

4. the longer of the two sessions with strings from the Select (on disc 2)

5. the trio session on disc two of the select too.

Ron’s an interesting foil for Hill, but maybe ‘interesting’ isn’t the right word.  He’s very grounded in his playing, not so staid as to be called ‘metronomic’ — but he’s just solid, holding down the time.

And I mean ‘solid’ as a more neutral adjective — as he NEVER mixes it up with Andrew (or Andrew’s various drummers) — and Ron just does his thing entirely in his own zone.

And it’s ’interesting’ only in the sense that it brings a whole different vibe to a Hill session.  Again, I’m NOT saying that’s a good thing (or a bad thing) — but it’s DEFINITELY noticeable.

I think(?) I like it, but on any some days I might say where the heck was Richard Davis??

I think Ron’s presence is best on the two sessions with Tolliver on disc one of the Select — and he seems to be electric maybe? — or else Ron’s acoustic with an electric pickup (or however you say it, or did that only come later?) — it’s a very active tone, that’s for sure.

And it works on Passing Ships nicely too.

And I say “Ron’s presence” because he’s not an active, creative player on these things — the way Richard Davis was.  Ron got in a zone, and just did his thing, and lets everyone else provide more creative ebb and flow, and variation.

I do “like” it (in that context with Hill) — but I don’t “love”.  BUT, it does make Hill’s music groove in a way that it never would otherwise — and I guess THAT’S what’s interesting, in a way.

 

Edited November 16, 2023 by Rooster_Ties

[jazzbo]

25 minutes ago, Guy Berger said:

Maybe a mistake but the adjective I mentally attach to post-1970 Ron Carter is “boring”

I won't quite say that but I would say post-1970 Carter is more boring than pre-1970 Carter to me. A wonderful player, but more exciting in the 'sixties for me.

One great tragedy of jazz is that Paul Chambers died in 1969. He is the epitome of a jazz bassist for me, and I would love to know the work he would have done beyond 1969 if he could have made it into the next decades.

[clifford_thornton]

I rarely think of Ron Carter as soloist, more in the realm of robust ensemble sound and detailed accompanist. He's not a player that I seek out but I've also never been particularly turned off by his presence on a record (as some have). Generally, the records he is on that I've spent time with predate the CTI era. 

Agreed about Paul Chambers. Too bad Wilbur Ware didn't record more, though what he's on is wonderful. Weird cat, apparently!

[jazzbo]

Yes, Ware. . . and Albert Stinson are two bassists I wish had recorded more and into the decades.

[clifford_thornton]

Yes! Stinson was a badass.

[JSngry]

We have had Buster Williams though. 

And Reggie Workman, perhaps the most evolved of them all! 

[clifford_thornton]

And Reggie is still at it!

I don't believe I've seen Buster in performance, but I've seen Reggie quite a number of times.

[sidewinder]

Ron's just finished his first set at Cadogan Hall and his trademark glissandos were much in evidence, along with his 'walking' style. Made it all look so effortless.

He dedicated the first set to the late Richard Davis, with some nice words in tribute.

40 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

And Reggie is still at it!

I don't believe I've seen Buster in performance, but I've seen Reggie quite a number of times.

I saw Buster with his quartet on one occasion - and to my delight they did 'Firewater'.

Edited November 16, 2023 by sidewinder

[Gheorghe]

Thank you all so much for your great inputs. This seems to become a wonderful thread and I´m glad I opened it. 

About CTI, I must admit that I have only 2 CTI albums as it seems: Hubbard´s "Red Clay" and the two "Mulligan-Baker at Carnegie Hall". The first mentioned has always been one of those albums that I think are just perfect, and the Mulligan-Baker I purchased only because I had heard the track "There will never be another you" in a club, spinned in the small hours and identified Ron, who was the greatest on it. 

The most post 1970 Ron I heard on CBS (all the VSOP albums) and on the Milestone label, which I liked much more than CTI. 

I have seen Ron both as a leader and as sideman. 

13 hours ago, JSngry said:

We have had Buster Williams though. 

And Reggie Workman, perhaps the most evolved of them all! 

Yeah, and the first time I heard Buster Williams was with Ron Carter´s Quartet in the late 70´s. Carter on piccolo bass , Kenny Barron , Ben Riley and Buster Williams. As you said, I must not have Ron on piccolo bass, and on that special concert at one point Buster played a solo, and THAT was the highlight of the evening. The boys I was with at that concert all said "Buster did cut out Ron" and that´s why he played only one solo. 
I heard Buster on more occasions, once with Benny Golson, Curtis Fuller and Mulgrew Miller (I don´t remember who was the drummer), and Ron was on a rare occasion with Cecil Payne. Of course I had seen Ron with VSOP. 
Reggie Workman: I saw him only once, that was with the Max Roach Quartet. 

 

15 hours ago, jazzbo said:

 

One great tragedy of jazz is that Paul Chambers died in 1969. He is the epitome of a jazz bassist for me, and I would love to know the work he would have done beyond 1969 if he could have made it into the next decades.

Paul Chambers, I was only 10 years old when he died so I didn´t have the chance to hear him live. But he was the first jazz bass I had heard on record (Miles Davis "Steamin´), and you know how boys are: You find your heroes, and each of those men, Miles,Trane,Garland, Paul, Philly became "my men". 
I´m not sure if Paul Chambers would have made a career like Ron Carter after 1970 since he was so worn out as early as from the mid 60´s on. Former the most recorded bass players in the 50´s , his appearances on BN sessions on decade later became fewer and he sounds quite strugglin on a late 60´s Lee Morgan date. I thing he was wandering around, someone said he looked poorish and always wore his "eternal black suit" which had seen better times.
He was so desparate, that in his last year he was considering to buy an electric bass to get more gigs, but I cannot imagine he would have had a big comeback even if he lived longer......, it wasn´t his times anymore. 

 

14 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

 

 

Too bad Wilbur Ware didn't record more, though what he's on is wonderful. Weird cat, apparently!

 Same thing like Chambers. Wilbur Ware was so much in demand in the 50´s, he recorded with Monk, and all, but seemed to be quite out of it as the 60´s went on. The only later appearances I heard on record is on the Mozaic set "Clifford Jordan Strata East" but on many of those late 60´s sessions there is an air of mortality on it. Some near forgotten players are on it, Kenny Dorham, who hadn´t made more records after his early 60´s BN, and like Wynton Kelly with only 1 or 2 more years to live, and I think there is a solo side of Wilbur Ware also, but it sounds rough, and there is a strange little interview with him. Practically I don´t know anything about his life. Was he also involved in harmful stuff like Paul Chambers ? 

 

10 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Ron's just finished his first set at Cadogan Hall and his trademark glissandos were much in evidence, along with his 'walking' style. Made it all look so effortless.

 

 

 

Oh, that must have been great ! Hope he will visit Viena too some times...... I´d like to see him again. 
I heard a later record of him, something like "4 generations of Miles" and was quite astonished that he didn´t have his trademark sound anymore. I have heard that the sound he had in the 70´s was due to connecting the pickup to the PA-System, and now it is a mike. I´ll have to ask my bass player next time, if there would be time for chattin.....you know you play a gig, I get out during intermission to smoke a cigarrete and after the second set everybody is in hurry  to catch the last Metro......

[jazzbo]

Re: Paul Chambers, some imagination is needed and one would have to imagine a Chambers with lessened "habit" going forward past the 'Sixties. I can imagine some great music as he was among the very best.

[clifford_thornton]

I don't know about Ware & drugs, though I know he was a drinker. Listen to the solos on Super Bass and then listen to William Parker -- the lineage is pretty obvious! 

[Peter Friedman]

Among the fine bass players from Detroit, my favorite is Doug Watkins. I heard both Paul Chambers and Doug Watkins frequently back in their early days and found Watkins the more interesting of the two.

 

[T.D.]

11 hours ago, Gheorghe said:

 

Paul Chambers, I was only 10 years old when he died so I didn´t have the chance to hear him live. But he was the first jazz bass I had heard on record (Miles Davis "Steamin´), and you know how boys are: You find your heroes, and each of those men, Miles,Trane,Garland, Paul, Philly became "my men". 
I´m not sure if Paul Chambers would have made a career like Ron Carter after 1970 since he was so worn out as early as from the mid 60´s on. Former the most recorded bass players in the 50´s , his appearances on BN sessions on decade later became fewer and he sounds quite strugglin on a late 60´s Lee Morgan date. I thing he was wandering around, someone said he looked poorish and always wore his "eternal black suit" which had seen better times.
He was so desparate, that in his last year he was considering to buy an electric bass to get more gigs, but I cannot imagine he would have had a big comeback even if he lived longer......, it wasn´t his times anymore. 

 

 Same thing like Chambers. Wilbur Ware was so much in demand in the 50´s, he recorded with Monk, and all, but seemed to be quite out of it as the 60´s went on. The only later appearances I heard on record is on the Mozaic set "Clifford Jordan Strata East" but on many of those late 60´s sessions there is an air of mortality on it. Some near forgotten players are on it, Kenny Dorham, who hadn´t made more records after his early 60´s BN, and like Wynton Kelly with only 1 or 2 more years to live, and I think there is a solo side of Wilbur Ware also, but it sounds rough, and there is a strange little interview with him. Practically I don´t know anything about his life. Was he also involved in harmful stuff like Paul Chambers ? 

I don't know much about Paul Chambers, but I recall that Miles Davis, in his autobiography (the Quincy Troupe ghostwritten one), basically said that Mr. PC was so messed up that he was bound to have a short lifespan. He cited (iirc) an incident where Chambers was so drunk that he passed out in a restaurant with his face in a plate of spaghetti.

Agreed on that Strata-East Mosaic, there's something spooky about some of the discs. The Wilbur Ware session didn't impress me so much, and the interview was so weird that I only listened once. Wikipedia said that Ware had a bout with heroin addiction and was incarcerated for a spell.

[jlhoots]

18 minutes ago, T.D. said:

I don't know much about Paul Chambers, but I recall that Miles Davis, in his autobiography (the Quincy Troupe ghostwritten one), basically said that Mr. PC was so messed up that he was bound to have a short lifespan. He cited (iirc) an incident where Chambers was so drunk that he passed out in a restaurant with his face in a plate of spaghetti.

Agreed on that Strata-East Mosaic, there's something spooky about some of the discs. The Wilbur Ware session didn't impress me so much, and the interview was so weird that I only listened once. Wikipedia said that Ware had a bout with heroin addiction and was incarcerated for a spell.

Off topic I suppose, but I once witnessed Barney Kessel also with his face in a plate of food at a restaurant.

[JSngry]

Wilbur Ware is foundational. 

[sgcim]

Ron's classical training was a big part of why he got called for so many great dates. He plays in tune on an instrument that Gunther Schuller said was impossible to play in tune on; especially on the low F. And then he always plays the right notes in his bass lines; even if it's just a root and 5th thing; it's the appropriate thing to do in that situation. Bass genius.

[Peter Friedman]

No love for one of my favorites - Doug Watkins?

[AllenLowe]

I was lucky enough to hear Ware in person once, with Monk around 1969. Though it was a long time ago, I can really remember his sound; I would say he played a lot of roots and fifths (from what i remember) and his time and sound just gave him a presence, hard to describe, and I don't think the recordings are quite the same. He was a mess, tried to borrow money from me, which I didn't do (I had about 10 dollars in my pocket and had to get home).

As for Ron Carter, for some reason I have never liked his playing, his sound. Once Dick Katz said to me "I don't want to listen to Ron Carter and his booming bass," and at  that I realized what I didn't like. The sound was just a thick mass to me the few times I saw him in person, and it lacked the more subtle soul of other bass players whom I liked better.

[hopkins]

I saw Ron Carter perform in college in a small auditorium. It must have been in 1984. He made some condescending comments, explaining that attending a jazz concert was not like attending a baseball game (everyone was being quiet, so I don't know what prompted that). Perhaps it was a bad day for him, but it annoyed me and I left! 

[Guy Berger]

23 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

No love for one of my favorites - Doug Watkins?

Watkins is good!  On lots of great hard bop sessions.

[Gheorghe]

On 11/24/2023 at 12:33 AM, AllenLowe said:

I was lucky enough to hear Ware in person once, with Monk around 1969. Though it was a long time ago, I can really remember his sound; I would say he played a lot of roots and fifths (from what i remember) and his time and sound just gave him a presence, hard to describe, and I don't think the recordings are quite the same. He was a mess, tried to borrow money from me, which I didn't do (I had about 10 dollars in my pocket and had to get home).

As for Ron Carter, for some reason I have never liked his playing, his sound. Once Dick Katz said to me "I don't want to listen to Ron Carter and his booming bass," and at  that I realized what I didn't like. The sound was just a thick mass to me the few times I saw him in person, and it lacked the more subtle soul of other bass players whom I liked better.

Very interesting thoughts. Well I think the sound of Ron Carter was part of my early listening in the 70´s . It was the acoustic sound of that time when an acoustic bass was used anyway, which was more seldom since even older established masters like Diz and Sonny Rollins mostly used electric bass during that time. 
Ron Carter appealed to us boys, he was Mr. Supercool and it´s natural that we listened to all the VSOP recordings and many Milestone recordings where it was most possible that Ron Carter was playing the bass. 
But I think that Ron changed his sound somewhere in the early 2000´s . As someone said earlier they got a new tehnic to capture the bass sound, where the pickup is not attached directly to the PA sound system, but to a mike. So when I heard that strange album "4 Generations of Miles" (George Coleman, Mike Stern, Ron Carter, Jimmy Cobb) the sound was more subtile. 

 

On 11/23/2023 at 5:11 PM, Peter Friedman said:

No love for one of my favorites - Doug Watkins?

Of course, if I´d listen to a typical "hard bop era" stuff from the 50´s and Doug Watkins would be on bass, it would be a safe thing. But my first , my very first listening experience of bass (when I was maybe 12 years old) was Paul Chambers, and since I wanted to get myself a bass it was his sound and his soloes that fascinated me most. What Chambers and Mingus did on solo bass just seemed incredible to me. Among about the next ten albums I purchased for little money was some Coltrane, and I had the comparation between "Blue Train" and some lesser known stuff of Trane with Wilbur Hardeen and so on, where Doug Watkins was on bass. While Chambers on "Moment´s Notice" just left me out of breeze, on those bootleg Coltrane-Hardeen session when it came to Doug Watkins´ turn to play a solo, he just walks on, same like in the ensemble playing, so at least then my thought was that it was a "lost occasion" to let me hear what this man can do on bass....., I heard a lot of Doug´s really solid playing on many sessions, but as a soloist I think Chambers at that time was no 1. 

Eventually when my Grandma died, I got some money and bought a bass fiddle I still have. At least then I thought to adopt the bass as a second instrument to play gigs where they already had a piano player. I practiced a lot and being a pianist I had the sense for playing changes and melodies on bass as soon as I mastered to pluck them strings. 

When it became clear that my really mission is playing the piano, bass gigs or bass practicing became more rare. Now this is 40 and more years ago and I still have the bass fiddle at home. Pickin it up again would me a lotta blisters on my fingers, which I can´t risc as a pianist.....

But even now, 40 years after my last gigs on bass I still "feel" the strings and the grips and last week while standing at the bar during intermission and explaining the bass lines of a composition of mine to a bass player I just sung the bass figures and mimicked them with my left hand and right hand, so he said "you play bass too? You just mimicked the right left hand positions when you sang the bass line...."