Don Byas Mosaic set available for pre-order

[Tom in RI]

I will also definitely be getting this set. I used to grab anything that had Byas on it. Anyone care to speculate what a Byas as sideman from before 1944 would look like as far as the number of discs ? 
 

[Jim Duckworth]

 

1 hour ago, Tom in RI said:

I will also definitely be getting this set. I used to grab anything that had Byas on it. Anyone care to speculate what a Byas as sideman from before 1944 would look like as far as the number of discs ? 
 

Timme Rosenkrantz/Andy Kirk/Count Basie/Lips Page, Joe Turner, Pete Johnson/Minton's (with Charlie Christian)

His Basie involvement would account for the majority-of course if you eliminate the one's he doesn't solo on, the number of discs becomes pretty manageable.

[Brad]

5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

But on the other hand I was excited to read this:

The Savoy and National sessions which are owned by the Concord Music Group

Hasn't it been said before "that's owned by Concord now and they won't deal with Mosaic"? If that is changing ...

I don’t think that’s completely true because they did work with Concord on the Savoy set.

Hopefully, we’ll see more collaborations in the future.  

[tranemonk]

Am I correct in reading that only one of these sessions has ever appeared on CD??

[mjzee]

13 minutes ago, tranemonk said:

Am I correct in reading that only one of these sessions has ever appeared on CD??

I think they're referring to the Timme Rosenkrantz material, specifically this:

https://storyvillerecords.com/product/timmes-treasures/

 

[romualdo]

OMG!!! Just opened my emails & saw Mosaic's latest - all of my Christmases have come at once - I have been waiting for this for quite a few years now. So So good

One down (Byas) & one to go (Wardell Gray)

Edited October 30, 2023 by romualdo

[porcy62]

Wow! Will love it!

 

[medjuck]

8 hours ago, gmonahan said:

I caught that too! It would indeed be wonderful if Mosaic could dig into THAT treasure!!  

Can you give some examples? (I may be  jaded because of my age-- I bought a lot of Concord material when cds  were a new medium and didn't know there was still some unreleased material.)  

[Ken Dryden]

Pre-ordered. Denon did a crappy job with the CD reissue, omitting all the alternate takes that were a part of the Savoy Jazz 2 LP set.

I pre-ordered this set when I saw my email during lunch.

I am also looking forward to Con Chapman's bio of Don Byas, though i don't know when it is scheduled for publishing, probably some time next year.

 

[EKE BBB]

6 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

I am also looking forward to Con Chapman's bio of Don Byas, though i don't know when it is scheduled for publishing, probably some time next year.

 

Last news from Con Chapman is that "it will be out in 2024 from University Press of Mississippi". 

[miles65]

On 10/29/2023 at 8:37 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

Yes, that's very annoying. Particularly so if the omission is not even because the musician featured elsewhere is not present at all but only because he does not SOLO.
And in this case here it sometimes says "Limited solo participation" by Byas. Pity ...
But I guess, with space constraints being what they are you cannot have 'em all. 🤨
Ah, long gone are the days when fans and reissuers drooled about a recording of a run-of-the-mill dance band just because it included 8 bars of solo by Bix or Tram.

Mayby annoying. But the set will be 10 Cd's. Lester Young had 2 sets with a total of 12 (including the Basie Decca's he did not solo on) Coleman Hawkins had 8, Chu Berry 7.  More CD's would probably make the set much harder to sell. There are 40 previously unknown tracks. In the 'C' section with recordings on 'orphaned' labels there are (if i counted correctly) 13 labels involved. A reason I thought there would never be a Don Byas Mosaic at all. I'm glad I was wrong.

Most of the the reisusses of Bix and Tram were unlicensed or bootlegs depending on where you live. They didn't have to worry about who owns wich label. Makes live a lot easier.😄

[tranemonk]

22 hours ago, mjzee said:

I think they're referring to the Timme Rosenkrantz material, specifically this:

https://storyvillerecords.com/product/timmes-treasures/

 

So I'll go back to my original question.. is Mosaic correct that this is the only session that's been released on CD before? I don't buy vinyl and I don't think I have any Byas... so I might have to thinks about this one.

[felser]

9 minutes ago, tranemonk said:

So I'll go back to my original question.. is Mosaic correct that this is the only session that's been released on CD before? I don't buy vinyl and I don't think I have any Byas... so I might have to thinks about this one.

And do they count previous reissues by our Andorran friends?

[jazzbo]

25 minutes ago, tranemonk said:

So I'll go back to my original question.. is Mosaic correct that this is the only session that's been released on CD before? I don't buy vinyl and I don't think I have any Byas... so I might have to thinks about this one.

No that is not correct, nor is that what they are asserting. What they are saying is that only on one cd was any of the material released on cd for the first time--that's how I read their statement. (The Storyville cd "Timme's Treasures."*) All but the apartment tapes have been out on European, US and Japanese cds I believe, and a few of the apartment selections have been out on cd as well.

Would make no real sense to seek out all these cds though, would cost more than the Mosaic most likely, and include other material than Don Byas sessions that may or may not be of interest.

*https://www.discogs.com/release/12607266-Timme-Rosenkrantz-Timmes-Treasures

37 minutes ago, tranemonk said:

So I'll go back to my original question.. is Mosaic correct that this is the only session that's been released on CD before? I don't buy vinyl and I don't think I have any Byas... so I might have to thinks about this one.

If you want to do some detective work and find the material on cd go to www.discogs.com and type in Don Byas and you'll find Savoy and National material on cd, probably under "Compilations." Then seek out the sessions Mr. Duckworth provided a listing of on the first page here, you'll find many or most or all on Chronological Classics or Signature or other cds:

The following Don Byas sessions of 1944-46 are not included in this set as they are under ownership of various parent labels:
Albert Ammons and his Rhythm Kings (Commodore – February 12, 1944)
Coleman Hawkins and his Orchestra (Apollo – February 16 and 22, 1944)
Eddie Heywood and his Orchestra (Signature – May 2, 1944)
Coleman Hawkins and his Sax Ensemble (Keynote – May 24, 1944)
Mary Lou Williams and her Orchestra (Asch – June 5, 1944)
“Hot Lips” Page and his Orchestra (Commodore – September 29, 1944)
Trummy Young and his Orchestra (Signature – December 4, 1944)
Cozy Cole’s Orchestra (Keynote – February 2, 1945)
Esquire All American 1946 Award Winners (RCA Victor–January 10 & 11, 1946)
Dizzy Gillespie and his Orchestra (RCA Victor – February 22, 1946)
Teddy Wilson Octet (Musicraft – August 19, 1946)
Tyree Glenn and his Orchestra/Don Byas and his Orchestra/Peanuts Holland and his Orchestra (Swing – December 4, 1946)

Edited October 30, 2023 by jazzbo

[romualdo]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

 

The following Don Byas sessions of 1944-46 are not included in this set as they are under ownership of various parent labels:
Albert Ammons and his Rhythm Kings (Commodore – February 12, 1944)
Coleman Hawkins and his Orchestra (Apollo – February 16 and 22, 1944)
Eddie Heywood and his Orchestra (Signature – May 2, 1944)
Coleman Hawkins and his Sax Ensemble (Keynote – May 24, 1944)
Mary Lou Williams and her Orchestra (Asch – June 5, 1944)
“Hot Lips” Page and his Orchestra (Commodore – September 29, 1944)
Trummy Young and his Orchestra (Signature – December 4, 1944)
Cozy Cole’s Orchestra (Keynote – February 2, 1945)
Esquire All American 1946 Award Winners (RCA Victor–January 10 & 11, 1946)
Dizzy Gillespie and his Orchestra (RCA Victor – February 22, 1946)
Teddy Wilson Octet (Musicraft – August 19, 1946)
Tyree Glenn and his Orchestra/Don Byas and his Orchestra/Peanuts Holland and his Orchestra (Swing – December 4, 1946)

Most of this material is sourceable & has had CD release, the trickiest being the Trummy Young Signature session - apparently only ever released as a Signature 78 (according to Lord). I did a crosscheck yesterday & have all of this material bar the Trummy session & the Teddy Wilson one (available on a Classics CD). BTW, Wilson did a significant number of recordings for Musicraft throughout '45 to '47 - could easily be a boxed set.

[mikeweil]

16 minutes ago, romualdo said:

 BTW, Wilson did a significant number of recordings for Musicraft throughout '45 to '47 - could easily be a boxed set.

Not enough music for a Mosaic set. 42 tracks including three alternates. It was all on 4 LPs, each running between 30 and 40 minutes. Only one compilation CD, though. The 4 tracks with Byas were on Vol. 2:

 

Edited October 30, 2023 by mikeweil

[miles65]

21 minutes ago, romualdo said:

Most of this material is sourceable & has had CD release, the trickiest being the Trummy Young Signature session - apparently only ever released as a Signature 78 (according to Lord). I did a crosscheck yesterday & have all of this material bar the Trummy session & the Teddy Wilson one (available on a Classics CD). BTW, Wilson did a significant number of recordings for Musicraft throughout '45 to '47 - could easily be a boxed set.

According to the notes in the booklet with Classics 1037 Trummy Young 1944-1946 Signature 15005 was announced it was never released. Lord gives Signature 15006.

[jazzbo]

Don Byas does appear on this disc:

https://www.discogs.com/master/2720048-Trummy-Young-1944-1946

[romualdo]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

Not enough music for a Mosaic set. 42 tracks including three alternates. It was all on 4 LPs, each running between 30 and 40 minutes. Only one compilation CD, though. The 4 tracks with Byas were on Vol. 2

 

I count 51 Musicraft tracks (including 3 alts) via Lord - what about a double CD then? I'm surprised the Andorrans havn't attempted this

32 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

Don Byas does appear on this disc:

https://www.discogs.com/master/2720048-Trummy-Young-1944-1946

unfortunately the four tracks from The Signature session (two unissued) are not on this Classics CD

1 hour ago, miles65 said:

According to the notes in the booklet with Classics 1037 Trummy Young 1944-1946 Signature 15005 was announced it was never released. Lord gives Signature 15006.

I'm wondering if Signature 15005 related to the two unreleased tracks from tyhe session

 

Buck Clayton (tp) Trummy Young (tb) Milt Yaner (cl,as) Don Byas (ts) Ernie Caceres (bar) Billy Rowland (p) Hy White (g) Al Lucas (b) Jimmy Crawford (d)

New York, December 4, 1944

SRC154	Let me call you sweetheart	Signature 15006
SRC155	Lame brain	(unissued)
SRC156	Please, please, please	Signature 15006
SRC157	Flogalapa	(unissued)

Note:

For a session of January 4, 1945 on Continental C6005 as by James "Trummie" Young's All Stars, see under Clyde Hart.

 

[tranemonk]

3 hours ago, jazzbo said:

No that is not correct, nor is that what they are asserting. What they are saying is that only on one cd was any of the material released on cd for the first time--that's how I read their statement. (The Storyville cd "Timme's Treasures."*) All but the apartment tapes have been out on European, US and Japanese cds I believe, and a few of the apartment selections have been out on cd as well.

Would make no real sense to seek out all these cds though, would cost more than the Mosaic most likely, and include other material than Don Byas sessions that may or may not be of interest.

*https://www.discogs.com/release/12607266-Timme-Rosenkrantz-Timmes-Treasures

If you want to do some detective work and find the material on cd go to www.discogs.com and type in Don Byas and you'll find Savoy and National material on cd, probably under "Compilations." Then seek out the sessions Mr. Duckworth provided a listing of on the first page here, you'll find many or most or all on Chronological Classics or Signature or other cds:

The following Don Byas sessions of 1944-46 are not included in this set as they are under ownership of various parent labels:
Albert Ammons and his Rhythm Kings (Commodore – February 12, 1944)
Coleman Hawkins and his Orchestra (Apollo – February 16 and 22, 1944)
Eddie Heywood and his Orchestra (Signature – May 2, 1944)
Coleman Hawkins and his Sax Ensemble (Keynote – May 24, 1944)
Mary Lou Williams and her Orchestra (Asch – June 5, 1944)
“Hot Lips” Page and his Orchestra (Commodore – September 29, 1944)
Trummy Young and his Orchestra (Signature – December 4, 1944)
Cozy Cole’s Orchestra (Keynote – February 2, 1945)
Esquire All American 1946 Award Winners (RCA Victor–January 10 & 11, 1946)
Dizzy Gillespie and his Orchestra (RCA Victor – February 22, 1946)
Teddy Wilson Octet (Musicraft – August 19, 1946)
Tyree Glenn and his Orchestra/Don Byas and his Orchestra/Peanuts Holland and his Orchestra (Swing – December 4, 1946)

Thanks. Appreciate it.

[mikeweil]

3 hours ago, romualdo said:

I count 51 Musicraft tracks (including 3 alts) via Lord - what about a double CD then? I'm surprised the Andorrans havn't attempted this

Maybe you are right and I miscounted. Meanwhile I discovered a second compliation CD on Musicraft. Each of the two has 17 tracks, so still not everything covered. 

3 hours ago, romualdo said:

unfortunately the four tracks from The Signature session (two unissued) are not on this Classics CD

I'm wondering if Signature 15005 related to the two unreleased tracks from the session

 

Buck Clayton (tp) Trummy Young (tb) Milt Yaner (cl,as) Don Byas (ts) Ernie Caceres (bar) Billy Rowland (p) Hy White (g) Al Lucas (b) Jimmy Crawford (d)

New York, December 4, 1944

SRC154	Let me call you sweetheart	Signature 15006
SRC155	Lame brain	(unissued)
SRC156	Please, please, please	Signature 15006
SRC157	Flogalapa	(unissued)

Note:

For a session of January 4, 1945 on Continental C6005 as by James "Trummie" Young's All Stars, see under Clyde Hart.

 

It seems Lord's data are incorrect if you compare to the listing here: http://www.78discography.com/Signiature.htm

No Trummy Young release in that list!

Edited October 31, 2023 by mikeweil

[Big Beat Steve]

17 hours ago, romualdo said:

... unfortunately the four tracks from The Signature session (two unissued) are not on this Classics CD ...

... According to the notes in the booklet with Classics 1037 Trummy Young 1944-1946 Signature 15005 was announced it was never released. Lord gives Signature 15006. ...

 

I'm wondering if Signature 15005 related to the two unreleased tracks from the session

Buck Clayton (tp) Trummy Young (tb) Milt Yaner (cl,as) Don Byas (ts) Ernie Caceres (bar) Billy Rowland (p) Hy White (g) Al Lucas (b) Jimmy Crawford (d)

New York, December 4, 1944

SRC154	Let me call you sweetheart	Signature 15006
SRC155	Lame brain	(unissued)
SRC156	Please, please, please	Signature 15006
SRC157	Flogalapa	(unissued)

 

As for Signature 15005 or 15006, does this mean that even the two tracks listed above as "NOT unissued" are the ones metioned as having been announced but not released? So in the end none of the four were ever released?

BTW, Jepsen indicates Signature 15005 for the two tracks that "seem" to have been released.

I wonder if "Flogalapa" is the same tune as "Fla-Ga-La-Pa" recorded both by the King Cole Trio and the Count Basie Orch. (Ann Moore, voc.).

[romualdo]

8 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

As for Signature 15005 or 15006, does this mean that even the two tracks listed above as "NOT unissued" are the ones metioned as having been announced but not released? So in the end none of the four were ever released?

BTW, Jepsen indicates Signature 15005 for the two tracks that "seem" to have been released.

I wonder if "Flogalapa" is the same tune as "Fla-Ga-La-Pa" recorded both by the King Cole Trio and the Count Basie Orch. (Ann Moore, voc.).

I'd say you're on the right track here - it appears that all 4 titles from that Signature session havn't been released - check the link below

https://www.45worlds.com/78rpm/record/nc991730us

Your mention of that Cole tune made me laugh - I remember first hearing it on the Cole Mosaic box in the mid 90s - I used to sing along with it to my children who got a buzz out if it & used to join in too

[Big Beat Steve]

Thanks, Romualdo. About the King Cole tune - a nice way to get the kids started with this kind of music!

About the two tracks of the alleged Signature 15005 disc: Interesting to see that Billboard clipping referring to this record. The "review" texts do look like the release plans were definite. So did pre-release review copies exist after all?

And the key question after all this: If Mosaic lists this session as deliberately having NOT been included, does this mean that they knowingly omitted them because it has too little Byas soloing to their ears? (But so they have had access to them to confirm the reason for omitting them?) Which would be a real pity, given their scarcity. Or are all four tracks in fact not just unreleased (as it seems) but definitely LOST? Bob Thiele seems to have recycled his Signature masters often and widely, not only on his Doctor Jazz reissues, but quite a few even showed up on RCA. So wouldn't it be interesting to know about the definite fate of this session?

BTW, curiosity got me .. So I checked the Billboard issue of 19 Jan. 1946 (on the World Radio History website) as well as several issues before and after that date. Signature 15007, 15008 and 15009 were listed in their "Advance release" listings (indicating records to be released within about 2 weeks) in the 12 Jan. 1946 issue, but no trace of earlier Signature release numbers in these lists back to mid-December 1945, nor up to mid-February 1946.

Edited November 1, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[romualdo]

6 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

BTW, curiosity got me .. So I checked the Billboard issue of 19 Jan. 1946 (on the World Radio History website) as well as several issues before and after that date. Signature 15007, 15008 and 15009 were listed in their "Advance release" listings (indicating records to be released within about 2 weeks) in the 12 Jan. 1946 issue, but no trace of earlier Signature release numbers in these lists back to mid-December 1945, nor up to mid-February 1946.

Nice detective work there - so It's likely that Signature 15005 & 15006 were not released & as you postulate, the music (4 tracks) from this session may be lost