Another Bird on vinyl question

[Pim]

Is there a good vinyl compilation of Birds Dials sessions? Preferably master takes only. I am aware of the Japanese On Dial  records but those sometimes have 5 takes of the same song. There is a complete master takes of the Savoy stuff. Is there something similar of his Dial sessions?

[jazzbo]

Spotlite did put this out which I remember seeing in the 'nineties. . . may be hard to find now:

https://www.discogs.com/release/3734959-Charlie-Parker-Bird-Lives-The-Complete-Dial-Masters

[JSngry]

This is not complete but is nevertheless quite fullsome:

https://www.discogs.com/release/9063989-Charlie-Parker-The-Very-Best-Of-Bird

[Big Beat Steve]

12 hours ago, Pim said:

Is there a good vinyl compilation of Birds Dials sessions? Preferably master takes only. I am aware of the Japanese On Dial  records but those sometimes have 5 takes of the same song. There is a complete master takes of the Savoy stuff. Is there something similar of his Dial sessions?

From your question I gather that the "Charlie Parker on Dial" LP series on Spotlite (6 volumes first released in the 70s but with numerous and multiple alternate takes) is not for you. Though does not seem to be overly rare.

In my early record buying and collecting days in the second half of the 70s I had bought a few LPs of Bird recordings on Dial that had been reissued on the Charlie Parker and SAGA labels, but they weren't widely available here at the time as they all were imports. Besides, these were compilations that left gaps and caused overlaps. So I soon figured it was time to get his entire Dial output in a more orderly and chronological way.
In the early 80s a 3-LP series of the Bird Dial recordings (master takes in session chronology) showed up on the Italian budget label JOKER (a label that was all over the place in the shops then with almost countless jazz reissues). Presentation and packaging are nothing special but pressing quality and fidelity are quite decent - and they were decidedly low-priced (which suited my University student's purse, though even then I found the presentation a bit below what would be appropriate for Bird).

https://www.discogs.com/release/3342575-Charlie-Parker-Charlie-Parker-Quartet-Quintet-Septet-Vol-1

https://www.discogs.com/release/1500626-Charlie-Parker-All-Stars-Quintet-Sextet-Vol-2

https://www.discogs.com/release/1500662-Charlie-Parker-Quintet-Sextet-3-Vol

The contents are almost the same as on the later Spotlite double LP indicated by Jazzbo (which I cannnot recall having ever seen in the shops),  except that they do not have the Dizzy-Gillespie-led "Diggin Diz" of 1945 (which is widely available on numerous other reissues) and the "Hot Blues" alt. take of "Cool Blues" but instead have 2 tracks of Bird and Diz with Red Norvo from 1945 (not present on the Spotlite 2-LP set) to make up the same total of 36 tracks.
I've since bought a few other, more carefully curated single LP compilations of the Bird Dials but still own no other chronological vinyl set of these (it's one of those things you postpone endlessly in the light of the countless repackagings of the material available at all times).

These Joker LPs still are available cheaply in various reissue pressings (see Discogs) so if you don't mind the budget packaging this might be a stopgap solution until something much more carefully presented comes your way.

I also remember the WB compilation 2-LP set linked by JSngry but as far as I can see it has "only" 27 instead of 36 tracks, so ...?

[Teasing the Korean]

5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I also remember the WB compilation 2-LP set linked by JSngry but as far as I can see it has "only" 27 instead of 36 tracks, so ...?

That was the first place where I encountered this material.

[Big Beat Steve]

I remember seeing this WB twofer several times through the years but I cannot recall if I already saw it at the time it was still available new or if this was in secondhand record shops throughout. I passed it up because I already had the contents (and more), though the liner notes looked nice.

[Chuck Nessa]

Back in the 1960s, I had these -

[Mark Stryker]

 

This quest has vexed me too -- to find quality LP versions of this material in good sound with smart curation that includes correct and/or superior takes. 

My first Charlie Parker record as a kid, c. 1975 was "Byrd Symbols" on Charlie Parker Records. I still think it's the best single LP selection of Dial material, but the version I had was obviously simulated stereo and as I got older, I grew to dislike it sonically. So, question: Are there earlier mono or reissued mono versions of this record that anyone can vouch for? 

Have always wondered what the sound quality of the Joker LPs. Anybody got an opinion on this?

I got the 2LP Warner Brothers set up on release but was always disappointed in that, as I recall, several tracks are inferior alternate takes rather than the masters (and didn't match my Bird Symbols LP) and all the ballads are frontloaded on Side 1. (Side 2 of Bird Symbols is mostly ballads, but "Scrapple" is there to break up the monotony of tempo. The sound is good but the pressing quality is dubious, and many copies I've heard have been flawed. Caveat Emptor. That said, the packaging is aces, including the insert with reproductions of a half dozen Parker-themed paintings by significant artists inspired by Bird -- those inserts are VERY scarce now.

I've not heard the 2-LP Spotlight compilation but I can see from photos that it has a problem that, in my view, plagues MANY compilations of this material, especially the CD collections. The first take of "Embraceable You" is one of the greatest (and most frequently analyzed) ballad performances in jazz history, but far too often it gets left out of compilations in favor of the second take (which is good but not nearly as fine as take 1) because of the general principal that the master take is the final take that the band did in the studio. Whether or not that's generally true, this is one case where the smart choice for reissue producers to go with take 1 (which, by the way, is the one on "Bird Symbols" and the Warner Bros twofer.) I am curious which take of "Embraceable You" was actually the one that was first released on Dial on 78. Anyone know?

 

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Mark Stryker

[Big Beat Steve]

Now if YOU (with your experience in this "business") have your doubts about all this then I feel somewhat comforted in my earlier buying decisions.

So ... trying to take things in order (see numbers below) with the spotty information I can provide:

2 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

 

This quest has vexed me too -- to find quality LP versions of this material in good sound with smart curation that includes correct and/or superior takes. 

My first Charlie Parker record as a kid, c. 1975 was "Byrd Symbols" on Charlie Parker Records. I still think it's the best single LP selection of Dial material, but the version I had was obviously simulated stereo and as I got older, I grew to dislike it sonically. So, question: Are there earlier mono or reissued mono versions of this record that anyone can vouch for? (1)

Have always wondered what the sound quality of the Joker LPs. Anybody got an opinion on this? (2)

I got the 2LP Warner Brothers set up on release but was always disappointed in that, as I recall, several tracks are inferior alternate takes (3) rather than the masters (and didn't match my Bird Symbols LP) and all the ballads are frontloaded on Side 1. (Side 2 of Bird Symbols is mostly ballads, but "Scrapple" is there to break up the monotony of tempo. The sound is good but the pressing quality is dubious, and many copies I've heard have been flawed. Caveat Emptor. (4) That said, the packaging is aces, including the insert with reproductions of a half dozen Parker-themed paintings by significant artists inspired by Bird -- those inserts are VERY scarce now.

I've not heard the 2-LP Spotlight compilation but I can see from photos that it has a problem that, in my view, plagues MANY compilations of this material, especially the CD collections. The first take of "Embraceable You" is one of the greatest (and most frequently analyzed) ballad performances in jazz history, but far too often it gets left out of compilations in favor of the second take (which is good but not nearly as fine as take 1) because of the general principle that the master take is the final take that the band did in the studio. (5) Whether or not that's generally true, this is one case where the smart choice for reissue producers to go with take 1 (which, by the way, is the one on "Bird Symbols" and the Warner Bros twofer.) I am curious which take of "Embraceable You" was actually the one that was first released on Dial on 78. Anyone know? (6)

 

(1) - In fact "Bird Symbols" and "Bird is Free" were two Charlie Parker Records label LPs I bought in my early days (must have been in 1976 after I had jumped head-on into bebop courtesy of the Dizzy Gillespie "In The Beginning" twofer on Prestige and after having bought the Ross Russell "Bird Lives" biography during a school class stay in London). I found both of these LPs in the jazz corner of a local record shop and picked them up at once, wondering how these "old-looking" LPs came to be available there as "late" as 1976. They did not look like someone had sneaked secondhand items in there. But both have the "Stereo-Pact" imprint on the cover too. The "Bird Symbols" cover facsimile in the "Complete Charlie Parker Records" box set released on a PD label a couple of years ago does not have this imprint but it will be a while before I can do a sonic check of the CD contents of this LP.

(2) I own these three LPs (the pressings that figure under the three Discogs links I provided. There are other pressings of these LPs with different covers so quality may not always be the same). To refresh my memory I listened through Vol. 1 of these today and find the sound quite OK but I do not have enough other vinyl pressings of Dial Bird tracks to do an aural comparison of them all and am not sure the Charlie Parker Records label LP would be the ideal reference of what can be achieved on vinyl soundwise. And I won't claim I am an experienced expert on the finest details of such comparisons. My guess is that Joker "adopted" the mastering used on the series of Spotlite LPs reissued earlier.

(3) Not wanting to pick nits, but isn't it so that the accepted (mandatory?) gospel in many Birdophile circles  is that ANY alternate studio takes by Bird are a revelation? Or is it really so in your opinion that the "Hot Blues" alternate of "Cool Blues" is the most essential alternate, but not all of the others are nearly as essential for the non-ultra-completist?

(4) and (5) Good to know, all this ... I know some other Bird compilations on LP (Verve included) had left me puzzled too when I compared the matrix numbers listed and found they had used alternates here and there without any discernible logic.

(6) According to the "Bird Lore" discography by Piet Koster and Harm Mobach (published in 2002), matrix D 1106-A (identified as the "alt. take" in the listing) was used on Dial 1024. As well as on 78s on London, Swing and Vogue. BUT - matrix D 1106-B (listed as the "master") is ALSO listed as having been used on Dial 1024 (along with 78s on Blue Star, Cupol, Esquire etc.). So there seem to exist TWO pressings of the Dial 78 with both takes of "Embraceable You" having been used. FWIW, according to this listing, matrix D 1106-A (alt. take) was used on many more LP reissues than matrix D 1106-B.

Discogs lists only the Dial 78 with matrix number 1106-B in the runout.

I trust that the discographers knew what they were putting into print in this book. Although ... I just noticed that they seem to have mixed up the A and B sides of this 78. According to the labels shown on Discogs "Bongo Bop" was side A, "Embraceable You" was side B. It's the opposite (for both takes and pressings) according to "Bird Lore". So "one never knows, do one"?

 

Edited October 26, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Pim]

Thanks guys you’ve all been of great help again  I’ll add these to my wantlist! Needles to say that Bird deserves a nice LP reissue. I’d love to have a Mosaic vinyl set of his Savoy and Dial master takes 🤗 never gonna happen but still

Edited October 26, 2023 by Pim

[Teasing the Korean]

4 minutes ago, Pim said:

Thanks guys you’ve all been of great help again  I’ll add these to my wantlist! Needles to say that Bird deserves a nice LP reissue. I’d love to have a Mosaic vinyl set of his Savoy and Dial master takes 🤗 never gonna happen but still

Why would it never happen?  Would Mosaic think that this material had already been offered too many times in too many formats for anyone to care?  I would think that interest in this material would remain relatively high by jazz audience standards.

[JSngry]

Some Bird Dial stuff also showed up on Roulette on the early 1970s.

[Pim]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Why would it never happen?  Would Mosaic think that this material had already been offered too many times in too many formats for anyone to care?  I would think that interest in this material would remain relatively high by jazz audience standards.

From what I know Mosaic doesn’t do vinyl anymore nor has plan to do it in the future.

[Teasing the Korean]

28 minutes ago, Pim said:

From what I know Mosaic doesn’t do vinyl anymore nor has plan to do it in the future.

OK, gotcha.  

[Brad]

Scott at Mosaic confirmed to me several months ago that they’re not returning to vinyl.

[Gheorghe]

On 10/26/2023 at 7:22 PM, Big Beat Steve said:

Now if YOU (with your experience in this "business") have your doubts about all this then I feel somewhat comforted in my earlier buying decisions.

So ... trying to take things in order (see numbers below) with the spotty information I can provide:

(1) - In fact "Bird Symbols" and "Bird is Free" were two Charlie Parker Records label LPs I bought in my early days (must have been in 1976 after I had jumped head-on into bebop courtesy of the Dizzy Gillespie "In The Beginning" twofer on Prestige and after having bought the Ross Russell "Bird Lives" biography during a school class stay in London). I found both of these LPs in the jazz corner of a local record shop and picked them up at once, wondering how these "old-looking" LPs came to be available there as "late" as 1976. They did not look like someone had sneaked secondhand items in there. But both have the "Stereo-Pact" imprint on the cover too. The "Bird Symbols" cover facsimile in the "Complete Charlie Parker Records" box set released on a PD label a couple of years ago does not have this imprint but it will be a while before I can do a sonic check of the CD contents of this LP.

(2) I own these three LPs (the pressings that figure under the three Discogs links I provided. There are other pressings of these LPs with different covers so quality may not always be the same). To refresh my memory I listened through Vol. 1 of these today and find the sound quite OK but I do not have enough other vinyl pressings of Dial Bird tracks to do an aural comparison of them all and am not sure the Charlie Parker Records label LP would be the ideal reference of what can be achieved on vinyl soundwise. And I won't claim I am an experienced expert on the finest details of such comparisons. My guess is that Joker "adopted" the mastering used on the series of Spotlite LPs reissued earlier.

(3) Not wanting to pick nits, but isn't it so that the accepted (mandatory?) gospel in many Birdophile circles  is that ANY alternate studio takes by Bird are a revelation? Or is it really so in your opinion that the "Hot Blues" alternate of "Cool Blues" is the most essential alternate, but not all of the others are nearly as essential for the non-ultra-completist?

(4) and (5) Good to know, all this ... I know some other Bird compilations on LP (Verve included) had left me puzzled too when I compared the matrix numbers listed and found they had used alternates here and there without any discernible logic.

(6) According to the "Bird Lore" discography by Piet Koster and Harm Mobach (published in 2002), matrix D 1106-A (identified as the "alt. take" in the listing) was used on Dial 1024. As well as on 78s on London, Swing and Vogue. BUT - matrix D 1106-B (listed as the "master") is ALSO listed as having been used on Dial 1024 (along with 78s on Blue Star, Cupol, Esquire etc.). So there seem to exist TWO pressings of the Dial 78 with both takes of "Embraceable You" having been used. FWIW, according to this listing, matrix D 1106-A (alt. take) was used on many more LP reissues than matrix D 1106-B.

Discogs lists only the Dial 78 with matrix number 1106-B in the runout.

I trust that the discographers knew what they were putting into print in this book. Although ... I just noticed that they seem to have mixed up the A and B sides of this 78. According to the labels shown on Discogs "Bongo Bop" was side A, "Embraceable You" was side B. It's the opposite (for both takes and pressings) according to "Bird Lore". So "one never knows, do one"?

 

Oh yeah ! 

It´s fascinating what you write since it is about the same times when I got interested in Bird. 

In my case it was just that I had heard his name and got in an indirect manner to him, via Mingus. But some of my quite wild older friends saw Bird as a hero, though their main interest was free jazz. Bird was something like a "James Dean" to them, fascinating, genious, short live. 
My first impression was that it sounds really "modern" , often much more advanced than the one or other better recorded mainstream jazz record. 

Those records "Bird is Free" and I think "The Happy Bird" were fascinating, but for really studying the best were the Savoy and Dial.

I think there was a series of Bird that my older friend had, and he always said "Die gestreifte Serie", it was a not very sharp pic of Bird and there were "stripes" on the cover, and he had all of them. But I think I remember they were not only Dial, the even had some tracks of the Birdland 1950 with Bud and Fats. 

For many Bird fans the "Spotlite" records were heaven on earth. But the Dials has too many alternate tracks which makes it boaring. I had more the live things on Spotlite, the "Bird in Paris", "Bird in Sveden" "Early Bird". 

Nowadays the only way I listen to those original tracks , all of Savoy and Dial is on a three CD set that is titled "The Savoy and Dial Mastertakes". That´s the best way to listen to the studio records of Bird in his most creative period. I can´t remember something compareable to it from the LP era.