Max Roach: The Drums Also Waltzes PBS American Masters documentary October 6

[cliffpeterson]

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/max-roach-the-drum-also-waltzes-film/26469/

 

 

Edited October 1, 2023 by cliffpeterson

[JSngry]

Long overdue! 

[Milestones]

I will be checking this out.  I have been listening to a lot of Max lately, especially work from his last period.

[jlhoots]

I've set it up to record. There's also some kind of Mingus doc. on our PBS station right after the Max program.

[JSngry]

I've come to learn some things about Max that are not at all flattering, so my "hero worship" that I long had has greatly dimmed.

But my reality-based ongoing experiences with his music, ALL of it, leaves me with an even greater admiration for those parts of his life, which as time passes are in some ways "larger than life", especially what passes for life these days. 

[AllenLowe]

Just now, JSngry said:

I've come to learn some things about Max that are not at all flattering, so my "hero worship" that I long had has greatly dimmed.

But my reality-based ongoing experiences with his music, ALL of it, leaves me with an even greater admiration for those parts of his life, which as time passes are in some ways "larger than life", especially what passes for life these days. 

Max, as Dan Morgenstern told me years ago "had psychological problems." In the early days he beat up people. Bill Triglia told me if he was walking down the street and saw Roach coming, he would cross the street rather than be shaken down for cash. And, Max did beat up Abbey Lincoln. Though from what I know he changed; when I met him he was just a very easy-going, nice person (we had a nice conversation about Dave Tough).

Musically-speaking, post-70s Max is a slog, at least for me. I think he lost his swing in his attempts to be "contemporary," and that last band with Pope and Bridgewater was deadly dull, to my ears. Max's playing was just like a hammer in those last years, and it swung as much. I admire his attempt to try, but he should have stayed with his  original concept, which was contemporary as anything; steely, rock-like sound, and incredibly swinging. Not as earth-bound.

[JSngry]

Odean Pope is badass. Still.

Cecil Bridgewater, not so much. Ever. 

[Milestones]

I like To the Max for the variety and ambition--not that it perfectly captures all his skills, at top level at least.

The late albums (usually quartet and the intriguing double quartet) have their fine moments, some good moments, some dud moments.  No album masterpieces, as far as I can tell.

 

  

[felser]

Look forward to eventually catching the doc.  Roach's Euro/Japanese 70's albums with Billy Harper desperately need CD issues.  Would make a great Mosaic.

Edited October 2, 2023 by felser

[jlhoots]

From the above, I guess some of you won't be watching!!

[JSngry]

9 hours ago, Milestones said:

The late albums (usually quartet and the intriguing double quartet) have their fine moments, some good moments, some dud moments.  No album masterpieces, as far as I can tell.

If nothing else. 

[gvopedz]

I'll be watching the Max Roach documentary.  Just before the Max program, PBS will be showing The Last Mambo.

[unitstructures]

14 hours ago, JSngry said:

I've come to learn some things about Max that are not at all flattering, so my "hero worship" that I long had has greatly dimmed.

But my reality-based ongoing experiences with his music, ALL of it, leaves me with an even greater admiration for those parts of his life, which as time passes are in some ways "larger than life", especially what passes for life these days. 

A friend of mine's grandpa was a gigging drummer in St Louis, his grandma still gets pissed any time Max Roach is brought up , apparently it was not wise to let him borrow stuff or loan him any money (at least during the time my friend's grandparents knew him)

14 hours ago, jlhoots said:

I've set it up to record. There's also some kind of Mingus doc. on our PBS station right after the Max program.

What Mingus doc??

Edited October 2, 2023 by unitstructures

[jlhoots]

37 minutes ago, unitstructures said:

A friend of mine's grandpa was a gigging drummer in St Louis, his grandma still gets pissed any time Max Roach is brought up , apparently it was not wise to let him borrow stuff or loan him any money (at least during the time my friend's grandparents knew him)

What Mingus doc??

Kennedy Center - Let My Children Hear Mingus

[JSngry]

Not at all a bad doc. 

Lots of footage out there, lots! 

[bertrand]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Not at all a bad doc. 

Lots of footage out there, lots! 

Can the entire concert with Abbey and Clifford Jordan be seen somewhere?

[JSngry]

YouTube?

Also found out that the Max Roach archives are housed in the LOC (if I heard that right).

[gvopedz]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

Also found out that the Max Roach archives are housed in the LOC (if I heard that right).

Yep, check it out:

https://www.loc.gov/item/2014572475/

Hopefully, someone is in the LOC writing a good biography of Max Roach.

More details about the Max Roach Papers:

https://findingaids.loc.gov/exist_collections/ead3pdf/music/2016/mu016007.pdf

 

[AllenLowe]

I am watching it gradually; on October 22 my quartet will be performing after a showing in New Haven. I will also, on that night, be co-moderating a panel on the film (the filmmaker will be there) -

So far, about one-third through, two things are bothering me - no mention of Jo Jones, who Max idolized, and, in the post-tragedy atmosphere of Clfford Brown's death, no mention of Bird's death just the year before. This must have had a huge impact on Roach - the two in near-tandem - and I know from the old beboppers I knew that Bird's death was cataclysmic for a generation of players who not only loved him but who were extremely dependent on his presence and creativity. From what I know, some were sent into a real personal tailspin, and I cannot imagine that the two deaths - not just the one, as the documentary mentions - were a terrible blow for him.

[JSngry]

I would think it possible that the sheer joy that Clifford Brown brought would be grounds for Max to keep a forward momentum as Bird went ahead to the exit lane.

I also think that there were those who had known him long enough for whom Bird's death was an inevitability, not an if but just a win.

As far as the film itself, my only real beef was the non-mention of the 70s quartets, especially the one with Billy Harper. There used to be live club footage of that band up on YouTube that was simply incendiary. 

 

[AllenLowe]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I would think it possible that the sheer joy that Clifford Brown brought would be grounds for Max to keep a forward momentum as Bird went ahead to the exit lane.

I also think that there were those who had known him long enough for whom Bird's death was an inevitability, not an if but just a win.

As far as the film itself, my only real beef was the non-mention of the 70s quartets, especially the one with Billy Harper. There used to be live club footage of that band up on YouTube that was simply incendiary. 

 

they don't discuss any of his groups in the '80s or '90s except M'Boom. And there are other errors, which didn't hurt my appreciation of the documentary, but which were significant and a bit shocking. The worst being that there is no real explanation of WHY his style was so revolutionary and important.

 

Edited October 7, 2023 by AllenLowe

[JSngry]

I was ok with that, since this seemed to be a general audience type thing. My wife really enjoyed the life story. 

I did appreciate the M'Boom footage though. I really liked that group's records and seeing them meant something to me, especially seeing Joe Chambers is something besides a still photo. 

[felser]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

 the 70s quartets, especially the one with Billy Harper. There used to be live club footage of that band up on YouTube that was simply incendiary. 

 

Saw them at Keystone Korner.  Incredible.  Reggie Workman's bass playing and Harper's tenor blew me away.  And the other groups on the bill were Bobby Hutcherson's and a late add of Dexter Gordon.  Only time I ever saw Dex live, a mesmerizing experience.

[Milestones]

It was cool just to see some jazz greats talking, such as Randy Weston and Jimmy Heath (no longer with us) and Sonny (retired).

There is a wonderful hour-long concert of Max and Weston on YouTube: San Sebastian, 1999.

 

 

 

[JSngry]

Abdullah Ibrahim also, which brought to mine the obscenely absent (in America) duet album that him and Max did.