Influences on early Coltrane

[Rabshakeh]

Some recent discussion on eras of Coltrane. Has there been much research on who may have most influenced John Coltrane when he first started, and how his ideas crystallised in those very early stages?

For ease of definition, let's take the period playing with Monk as the end point for the early stages.

I find it very hard to "unhear" Coltrane, having started out listening to him. He has quite distinctive melodic, harmonic and rhythmic positions even from quite early on. 

Edited September 7, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[jlhoots]

maybe Dexter Gordon.

[John L]

Charlie Parker was an early key influence.  Listen to the 1940s recordings he made on alto with his Navy buddies.   Dexter Gordon and Sonny Stitt were certainly also influences.   We had a discussion of Jimmy Heath and Coltrane a while back but it is a bit unclear who influenced whom in that case. 

[Rabshakeh]

Did Coltrane mention Gordon and Stitt? I can certainly hear the former. Parker I find it harder to hear in Coltrane, particularly their very different sense of when to place notes.

[JSngry]

One way of another, Bird influenced EVERYBODY who came up with and after him.

In the Encyclopedia Of Jazz (IIRC), Trane lists Dexter as an early influence, and Stitt as a favorite, along with Stan Getz.

Biographies list even earlier influences as Johnny Hodges and Lester Young. Tab Smith even gets a mention along the way, from Trane himself! And he speakes with a certain reverence about Earl Bostic, gleaned from his time in Bostic's band.

In other words, he was not unique in his response to his musical/cultural winds of his time.

Check out the live record of Trane playing in Hodges' band. A lot becomes evident there.

 

 

 

 

[mikeweil]

52 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

maybe Dexter Gordon.

I'd rather say they coined their styles from the same wider palette of influences, resulting in some similarities. They were born only three years apart. Look at all the Philadelphia sax players and how different they sound, although they shared ideas etc., Golson, Jimmy Heath ....

[JSngry]

Dexter had profile years (a decade or so) before Dexter, though. Trane openly acknowledged the influence.

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

I'd rather say they coined their styles from the same wider palette of influences, resulting in some similarities. They were born only three years apart. Look at all the Philadelphia sax players and how different they sound, although they shared ideas etc., Golson, Jimmy Heath ....

It was listening to Golson that triggered me asking. He does and doesn't sound like Trane.

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

In the Encyclopedia Of Jazz (IIRC), Trane lists Dexter as an early influence, and Stitt as a favorite, along with Stan Getz.

Biographies list even earlier influences as Johnny Hodges and Lester Young. Tab Smith even gets a mention along the way, from Trane himself! And he speakes with a certain reverence about Earl Bostic, gleaned from his time in Bostic's band.

Okay, great. That's it then. I do hear Gordon for sure.

Getz an interesting one. I know of the famous Coltrane quote where he says something like "we all wish we could sound like Stan Getz", but I had assumed there was a hint of irony there. I certainly don't hear or feel much closeness there. Interesting to know that he said he was a favourite of his.

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Check out the live record of Trane playing in Hodges' band. A lot becomes evident there.

This I have to see.

Edit: He's on loads of Johnny Hodges?! I had no idea. 

I knew Bostic and Gillespie. Had no idea he played with Hodges...

[JSngry]

There's only one w/Hodges that's live. It's a boot, and very worth searching out. Rabbit didn't play a lot and turned a lot of the space over to Trane. 

[adh1907]

Reminds me that there’s a good film of Getz with Coltrane playing Hackensack, 1960. Love the smile they give one another at about 25s in. Wildly contrasting styles at the time. Getz sticks to his stuff. Not so long after this, most tenor players were copying Coltrane. As an aside, did Getz ever take on board any Coltrane-isms? I am not aware that he did.
 

 

[JSngry]

 

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Getz an interesting one. I know of the famous Coltrane quote where he says something like "we all wish we could sound like Stan Getz", but I had assumed there was a hint of irony there. I certainly don't hear or feel much closeness there. Interesting to know that he said he was a favourite of his.

Players respect players. Talent respects talent. People roll their eyes at Bird digging Jimmy Dorsey, but they shouldn't. If you do the work yourself, you know that the other guy has done it too, and you have to respect where they've gotten with it.

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

It was listening to Golson that triggered me asking. He does and doesn't sound like Trane.

Those Philly guys (including Heath) were all working on the same ideas. But they all put them into their own tone and phrasing. So yes, they do and don't sound like each other.

That used to be the way it was supposed to work.

 

[mhatta]

I have heard that Hasaan Ibn Ali, who was recently re-discovered, was an influence on Coltrane's Sheets of Sound. Yet another Philly connections.

Many hard bop pianists learned the horn lines, and saxophonists learned the harmonies from the pianists.  In the case of Trane, from Monk and possibly Hasaan.

Edited September 8, 2023 by mhatta

[Gheorghe]

I hear a lot of Dexter in Trane´s early recordings like those with Johnny Hodges and early Dizzy. 

And on the other hand, after Trane had been influenced by Dex, the later Dex from the later sixties on got some influences from Trane into his playing. Like, the way how he played Body and Soul, the inclusion of more modal pieces. You also can hear a lot of Trane influence on Dexter´s version of Night in Tunisia on "Our Man in Paris". 

 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Bill Evans, whom Coltrane roomed with for a while.  Also George Russell.  Coltrane reportedly took some lessons from Ornette Coleman and sent him a check for it.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Rabshakeh]

25 minutes ago, Gheorghe said:

I hear a lot of Dexter in Trane´s early recordings like those with Johnny Hodges and early Dizzy. 

That's what i mean. Very hard to disentangle.

Are there records (live or comps) with early Coltrane playing with Bostic and with Gillespie? I have heard the comp The Champ but that's all.

7 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Bill Evans, whom Coltrane roomed with for a while.  Also George Russell.

Was this pre-playing with Monk? 

George Russell is one I hadn't heard. Was that as a theorist?

[Stompin at the Savoy]

7 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Was this pre-playing with Monk? 

George Russell is one I hadn't heard. Was that as a theorist?

They roomed together in 1958 or 59.  The stint with Monk was around 61, I think.  Russell wrote up the theoretical basis for some modal playing, which of course was a focus in the late 50's for Miles, Evans, Coltrane, etc.  Evans had worked with Russell and I believe these people were all floating around in the same circles.

Edit: oops I guess the Monk period is 57.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Big Beat Steve]

I recently scored a very affordable copy of "Trane's First Ride" (Oberon 5100) that feature him with the Dizzy Gillespie Sextet at Birdland in early 1951. I haven't listend to it yet but FWIW the liner notes mention "big chunks of Lester Young" as a discernible influence.

[Jack Pine]

I heard an old Benny Golson interview recently where he recounts first meeting Coltrane: he was known then around Philly as the young guy who could sound just like Johnny Hodges.

[JSngry]

5 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

Are there records (live or comps) with early Coltrane playing... with Gillespie? 

Yes, see upthread. From 1951.

[Rabshakeh]

22 minutes ago, Jack Pine said:

I heard an old Benny Golson interview recently where he recounts first meeting Coltrane: he was known then around Philly as the young guy who could sound just like Johnny Hodges.

Now that is interesting. Not something that I had picked up on at all.

[Guy Berger]

9 hours ago, Jack Pine said:

I heard an old Benny Golson interview recently where he recounts first meeting Coltrane: he was known then around Philly as the young guy who could sound just like Johnny Hodges.

I think it's Lewis Porter who mentions that Coltrane's ballad playing is more influenced by Hodges (or pre-bebop styles) than by Bird?  I may be misremembering.

[JSngry]

You can hear that on the Hodges live date. At times he  almost sounds like Al Sears! 

[Guy Berger]

20 hours ago, adh1907 said:

Reminds me that there’s a good film of Getz with Coltrane playing Hackensack, 1960. Love the smile they give one another at about 25s in. Wildly contrasting styles at the time. Getz sticks to his stuff. Not so long after this, most tenor players were copying Coltrane. As an aside, did Getz ever take on board any Coltrane-isms? I am not aware that he did.

Not an expert in this, but :

1) A composition like "Antigny" on Blue Skies is hard to imagine without the influence of Coltrane.

2) At the end of "I Love You" from Serenity, Getz definitely plays around with some avant-gardisms in his playing.  Nothing that's out of the mainstream for most mainstream post-bop players, but definitely more radical than what we typically associate with him.

Just now, Guy Berger said:

Not an expert in this, but :

1) A composition like "Antigny" on Blue Skies is hard to imagine without the influence of Coltrane.

2) Getz was pretty comfortable with "modern" rhythm sections which, after 1965, were inevitably influenced by Coltrane's quartet.

3) At the end of "I Love You" from Serenity, Getz definitely plays around with some avant-gardisms in his playing.  Nothing that's out of the mainstream for most mainstream post-bop players, but definitely more radical than what we typically associate with him.