Great Post-War big band swing records (No Basie / Ellington)

[jazzcorner]

I would recommend all the big band recordings from the CAPITOL Jazz Classics series which I have complete.

Favorites from that series are Charlie Barnet & Woody Herman even it is mor Bebop than Swing

[Teasing the Korean]

10 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

They look interesting. Is there an exotica / jazz subgenre for big band records about cityscapes?

I don't think so, but there are several of big band jazz albums that pay tribute to the concrete jungle.  I file them in the crime jazz section, because that seems to be the most logical place, based on how my mind works (or doesn't work).

[JSngry]

1988 on Atlantic, iirc

 

Hamp....so many records on so many labels...the one where he plays a couple of Coltrane tunes tends to usually be available in some form or fashion:

https://www.discogs.com/release/7565348-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-And-His-Band-Live-At-The-Muzeval

Wild Bill Davis on organ, and sure you can dance to Giant Steps. Who said you couldn't?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

City Pop.

Are the underlined ones recommended?

Those are hyperlinks to articles in wikipedia.  Click them and you go to the article.  In this case there are only pages for certain titles.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[JSngry]

Oh, Hamp, yes, how could I forget this gem?

Crank it up. 

[Rabshakeh]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Oh, Hamp, yes, how could I forget this gem?

Crank it up. 

 

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

1988 on Atlantic, iirc

 

Hamp....so many records on so many labels...the one where he plays a couple of Coltrane tunes tends to usually be available in some form or fashion:

https://www.discogs.com/release/7565348-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-And-His-Band-Live-At-The-Muzeval

Wild Bill Davis on organ, and sure you can dance to Giant Steps. Who said you couldn't?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

These look bang on. Thank you.

[gmonahan]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Harry James settled into Las Vegas with a book mostly by Ernie Wilkins. But as time went by, he used Neal Hefty as well. Others too 

I think the band made some records for MGM in the 1960s, but they haven't made it to digital? 

James made some great records for Capitol and Verve in the fifties. Mosaic gathered the Capitol material in a now-out-of-print set. The Verve stuff has never been properly reissued, though there's a pretty good compilation disc, and Avid put out a 2-cd set with four of the "off label" things, but you're right. Harry James seldom put out a bad record.

[JSngry]

I recall seeing a James Dot LP in the bins that was showcasing his latest band which included Buddy Rich. I recognized some of the charts and was interested, but it was over 10 bucks and I passed. Besides, it looked just a bit chancy...strings...

But that record was this band, and this was a good band, with Buddy Rich just before Harry James fronted him the money to start his own band. 

Here's another one on Dot. Never have seen this one, but yes, it's a Thad Jones chart!

 

[Chuck Nessa]

11 hours ago, JSngry said:

Harry James settled into Las Vegas with a book mostly by Ernie Wilkins. But as time went by, he used Neal Hefty as well. Others too 

I think the band made some records for MGM in the 1960s, but they haven't made it to digital? 

Here are some - I bought this for my father and copped it after his passing.

[Big Beat Steve]

Seems like this "post-war swing - or swing-based big bands" thread has passed into a "post-1960 all sorts of jazz big bands" thread that zigzags quite a bit.

All very well (and of course it reflects each forumist's listening habits), but - Rabshakeh, if you still have an eye on post-WAR (meaning: starting with post-1945) swing-based big bands, I'll draft a more detailed vinyl list ASAP. But the direction of this thread is getting a bit hard to follow now so I am wondering where and what to focus on ...

So I for one will try to be at last somewhat chronological.

For the time being, starting with Lionel Hampton, those recommendations for later big bands are all very well, but if you want to get the full blast and experience the impact that the Hampton big band had in its day, take a shot at his post-war Decca and MGM big band studio recordings first of all. There have been at least two good reissue SERIES by MCA that cover the Decca period from 1942 up to 1950 (skip those "Best Of" albums unless you really want to limit yourself to a limited listening-in taster and feel the Hampton powerhouse band will be getting too much for you pretty fast - which can happen ... ).

These two series were a 10-volume LP series on German MCA such as this one below (the Discogs listings of Lionel Hampton LP releases are a total mess so it is not easy to show the entire series under one link):

https://www.discogs.com/release/6891400-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-Vol-4-1945-1946

And then there was a 6-LP set in the MCA "Jazz Heritage" series (as US or French MCA Coral pressings - this Vol. 3 incidentally truly ROCKS!):

https://www.discogs.com/release/7855746-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-3-Sweatin-With-Hamp-1945-1950

The German series (covering the recordings chornologically) is for completists,the Jazz Heritage series has almost as much (the "essentials" and more), and both have their merits.

The subsequent MGM recordings have been reissued in various guises. I have them here:

https://www.discogs.com/master/1578506-Lionel-Hampton-And-His-Orchestra-Oh-Rock

And then, to get an idea of the concert atmosphere of the 50s (there are PLENTY of records of these - but above all DON'T be discouraged by the blabber of snooty period reviewers who found all this was just some lowly "rock'n'roll circus"! ), have an eye on the following (going by the Discogs listings, for example, as there are numerous packagings so availability at the right price might dictate your choices):

Apollo Hall Concert 1954 (N.B: NOT the N.Y Apollo but an excellent concert in Düsseldorf/Germany! )
Trianon (Chicago) 1954
Olympia 1956 (Paris concerts during a lenghty stay in France)
"European Concert 1953" (IAJRC 31 - Paris, sept. 53, one of the very few documents of the great 1953 band that included Clifford Brown, Art Farmer, Gigi Gryce etc., though even here they are not very much in the foreground)
Lionel Hampton in Vienna 1954 Vols. 1 and 2 (RST label)

Of course you don't need all of these (unless you are evolving into a Hampton fanatic) but a sampling cannot hurt.

Among the countless "odds and ends" live recordings by Hampton that have been reissued, one I think is worth singling out is this (regardless of which of the releases/pressings listed):

https://www.discogs.com/release/2260684-Lionel-Hampton-His-Orchestra-Lionel-Hampton-His-Orchestra-1948

Fidelity is so-so but this is an intriguing and fairly bebop-influenced line-up (that includes young Charles Mingus and Wes Montgomery in the cast).

So there you are for the (roughly) FIRST ten post-war years of the Lionel Hampton big band.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Seems like this "post-war swing - or swing-based big bands" thread has passed into a "post-1960 all sorts of jazz big bands" thread that zigzags quite a bit.

All very well (and of course it reflects each forumist's listening habits), but - Rabshakeh, if you still have an eye on post-WAR (meaning: starting with post-1945) swing-based big bands, I'll draft a more detailed vinyl list ASAP. But the direction of this thread is getting a bit hard to follow now so I am wondering where and what to focus on 

That would be amazing. I would love to hear more. No need for speed. 

The thread is a little diffuse at points. That is my fault for not setting proper parameters at the start, and then getting excited when everyone has been pitching in with great recommendations.

Definitely, what I am looking for is recommendations of LPs* by post-WW2 swing big bands. They needn't be immediately post-war. R&B and bop influences or inclusion of modernist-leaning players is all absolutely fine. At a push, swing can also include 'dance' bands, if they otherwise fit or are interesting to you. Basically, what I am saying is that I think your suggestions up-thread sound like exactly what I am looking for.

* By "LPs", what I mean is either something issued on a long player of some sort at the time, or at least in a historic and now-standard collections issued originally on single or double LP. Vinyl or not vinyl is less important to me than running time and historical 'presence'.  I personally find it very hard to listen to or digest 5CD retrospective box sets of singles, even if that is sometimes the name of the game for music issued before the mid 50s.

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

For the time being, starting with Lionel Hampton, those recommendations for later big bands are all very well, but if you want to get the full blast and experience the impact that the Hampton big band had in its day, take a shot at his post-war Decca and MGM big band studio recordings first of all. There have been at least two good reissue SERIES by MCA that cover the Decca period from 1942 up to 1950 (skip those "Best Of" albums unless you really want to limit yourself to a limited listening-in taster and feel the Hampton powerhouse band will be getting too much for you pretty fast - which can happen ... ).

These two series were a 10-volume LP series on German MCA such as this one below (the Discogs listings of Lionel Hampton LP releases are a total mess so it is not easy to show the entire series under one link):

https://www.discogs.com/release/6891400-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-Vol-4-1945-1946

And then there was a 6-LP set in the MCA "Jazz Heritage" series (as US or French MCA Coral pressings - this Vol. 3 incidentally truly ROCKS!):

https://www.discogs.com/release/7855746-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-3-Sweatin-With-Hamp-1945-1950

The German series (covering the recordings chornologically) is for completists,the Jazz Heritage series has almost as much (the "essentials" and more), and both have their merits.

The subsequent MGM recordings have been reissued in various guises. I have them here:

https://www.discogs.com/master/1578506-Lionel-Hampton-And-His-Orchestra-Oh-Rock

And then, to get an idea of the concert atmosphere of the 50s (there are PLENTY of records of these - but above all DON'T be discouraged by the blabber of snooty period reviewers who found all this was just some lowly "rock'n'roll circus"! ), have an eye on the following (going by the Discogs listings, for example, as there are numerous packagings so availability at the right price might dictate your choices):

Apollo Hall Concert 1954 (N.B: NOT the N.Y Apollo but an excellent concert in Düsseldorf/Germany! )
Trianon (Chicago) 1954
Olympia 1956 (Paris concerts during a lenghty stay in France)
"European Concert 1953" (IAJRC 31 - Paris, sept. 53, one of the very few documents of the great 1953 band that included Clifford Brown, Art Farmer, Gigi Gryce etc., though even here they are not very much in the foreground)
Lionel Hampton in Vienna 1954 Vols. 1 and 2 (RST label)

Of course you don't need all of these (unless you are evolving into a Hampton fanatic) but a sampling cannot hurt.

Among the countless "odds and ends" live recordings by Hampton that have been reissued, one I think is worth singling out is this (regardless of which of the releases/pressings listed):

https://www.discogs.com/release/2260684-Lionel-Hampton-His-Orchestra-Lionel-Hampton-His-Orchestra-1948

Fidelity is so-so but this is an intriguing and fairly bebop-influenced line-up (that includes young Charles Mingus and Wes Montgomery in the cast).

So there you are for the (roughly) FIRST ten post-war years of the Lionel Hampton big band.

Thanks for this. This is great stuff. Thank you for taking the time to put all of this down.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Big Beat Steve]

52 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Definitely, what I am looking for is recommendations of LPs* by post-WW2 swing big bands. They needn't be immediately post-war. R&B and bop influences or inclusion of modernist-leaning players is all absolutely fine. At a push, swing can also include 'dance' bands, if they otherwise fit or are interesting to you. Basically, what I am saying is that I think your suggestions up-thread sound like exactly what I am looking for.

I was specifically referring to the immediate post-war period (roughly 1945-50) only because I have always been interested in this transitional period and how the bands (including big bands) evolved after the arrival of "modern jazz" in all directions, either towards bebop (such as with Woody Herman, Benny Goodman, Charlie Barnet and others), "Progressive" jazz (e.g. Boyd Raeburn, Claude Thornhill, Elliott Lawrence) or R&B (most Black bands).
So I have a LOT of that stuff.
I've never bought that often-colported story of the entire big band scene collapsing totally in 1947 as I had discovered early on that there were many that kept going, even though the going was far rougher. And this "crossover" music they produced has always been quite interesting to me. In fact, last night after JSngry's plug for Harry James I spun several of the 1948-50 LPs I have of his band and think they will be up your alley too.

The 50s bands and their recordings will follow later. And I did take notice of why you are looking for what format.
 

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I was specifically referring to the immediate post-war period (roughly 1945-50) only because I have always been interested in this transitional period and how the bands (including big bands) evolved after the arrival of "modern jazz" in all directions, either towards bebop (such as with Woody Herman, Benny Goodman, Charlie Barnet and others), "Progressive" jazz (e.g. Boyd Raeburn, Claude Thornhill, Elliott Lawrence) or R&B (most Black bands).
So I have a LOT of that stuff.
I've never bought that often-colported story of the entire big band scene collapsing totally in 1947 as I had discovered early on that there were many that kept going, even though the going was far rougher. And this "crossover" music they produced has always been quite interesting to me. In fact, last night after JSngry's plug for Harry James I spun several of the 1948-50 LPs I have of his band and think they will be up your alley too.

The 50s bands and their recordings will follow later. And I did take notice of why you are looking for what format.
 

This is absolutely great, and I look forward to it! I similarly often find myself drawn to the fill in the story where I think the generalised narrative has ignored or obscured what was going on. I tend to find that the music that sits in those gaps is easily the equal of whatever was going on elsewhere. 

[Gheorghe]

just read that you ask for swing big bands of the post war era. Can´t contribute much, I mean I hear the Mr. B´s fantastic big band and Dizzy´s Bigband, and swing......well they swing like mad, can´t stay still on something like that, I start to move around in the whole room ! 

[JSngry]

I wish that America had seen those comprehensive Hamp collections.

Mosaic should have done one by now. 

[Big Beat Steve]

20 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I wish that America had seen those comprehensive Hamp collections.

Mosaic should have done one by now. 

The 10-LP series from the 70s on German MCA Coral may not have circulated on other continents but to the best of my knowledge the "Jazz Heritage" reissue series (though it orignated in France and was collated there) saw both French and US pressings (the US pressings had sturdier cardboard covers). Whatever secondhand copies show up here may come from any of the two countries, though I am not sure if the entire series was pressed in both countries, including all the 6 volumes on Lionel Hampton.
Anyway ... I have Vols. 1 to 5 on French MCA but Vol. 3 also on US MCA (MCA-1331, the French pressing of Vol. 3 is MCA 510.103) and a sixth one ("Rarities", MCA-1351) as a US pressing too. So it looks like this series at least was around in the USA as well.
And if you take into account that one of the 10 German volumes was dedicated to the Carnegie Hall All-American Award concert of April 1945 that was reissued in numerous forms through the years (including in the USA) then this reduces the difference of contents somewhat after all.

[Rabshakeh]

10 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

And then there was a 6-LP set in the MCA "Jazz Heritage" series (as US or French MCA Coral pressings - this Vol. 3 incidentally truly ROCKS!):

https://www.discogs.com/release/7855746-Lionel-Hampton-Lionel-Hampton-3-Sweatin-With-Hamp-1945-1950

I should add that I love the fact that there is a jazz record called "Sweatin' with Hamp". I would like to buy two copies just to send to Brad Mehldau and Vijay Iyer.

[Big Beat Steve]

Once you have listened ot the contents you will realize that the "Sweat" flows there alright! 😁 Even the slower/bluesier tracks groove along fine.
As an anecdote, "Turkey Hop "(Pt.1) - also present on that Vol. 3 - made it onto an R&B/Rockabilly dancefloor compilation LP in the 80s. I guess this was the first introduction to Lionel Hampton for quite a few hepcats/rockabillies.

Edited August 23, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

Latter day Hamp sweats too:

https://www.discogs.com/master/940081-Lionel-Hampton-50th-Anniversary-Concert-Live-At-Carnegie-Hall

 

[Niko]

imho, Mike Zwerin's memories of playing with Claude Thornhill in the 50s are required reading on this topic,

https://jazzprofiles.blogspot.com/2015/07/the-square-on-lawn-by-michael-zwerin.html

(the relevant part starts with "When I came back to New York from Miami," but the stuff before is actually interesting, too)

Edited August 23, 2023 by Niko

[gmonahan]

15 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Here are some - I bought this for my father and copped it after his passing.

Yes, that's the comp album I was thinking of in my previous post. It had Buddy Rich on drums. Jim was more accurate than I was in noting that James recorded for MGM, not Verve. Verve *reissued* some of that early 60s MGM stuff.  There's another compilation of MGM things in this one:

 

[JSngry]

Where does the Dot label live now? With Universal/whoever? 

[Rabshakeh]

15 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I've never bought that often-colported story of the entire big band scene collapsing totally in 1947 as I had discovered early on that there were many that kept going, even though the going was far rougher.

What’s the significance of 1947 specifically?

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Where does the Dot label live now? With Universal/whoever? 

Wikipedia says Universal is right.

[Big Beat Steve]

9 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

What’s the significance of 1947 specifically?

I cannot quickly come up with a verbatim quote but there are numerous jazz books where 1947 is commonly given as the "end of the big band era" because during that single year leaders of a comparatively large number of big bands (particularly several "name" bands) gave up leading big bands and scaled down to combo size or quit the leader role altogether.
But like I said, if you look closer there were those that did carry on (sometimes after a brief hiatus to reorganize) so the big band days did not stop altogether and you cannot paint the situation in an "all back or white" picture, although the big bands no longer reigned supreme.  At any rate, the recordings to confirm ongoing big band activities are there if you investigate deeper (although the post-1947 recordings initially often were either airshots, concert recordings or transcriptions because the AFM under Petrillo called out another recording strike effective as of 01/01/1948 that largely axed commerical recordings during 1948).

 

Edited August 24, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Rabshakeh]

26 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

I cannot quickly come up with a verbatim quote but there are numerous jazz books where 1947 is commonly given as the "end of the big band era" because during that single year leaders of a comparatively large number of big bands (particularly several "name" bands) gave up leading big bands and scaled down to combo size or quit the leader role altogether.
But like I said, if you look closer there were those that did carry on (sometimes after a brief hiatus to reorganize) so the big band days did not stop altogether and you cannot paint the situation in an "all back or white" picture, although the big bands no longer reigned supreme.  At any rate, the recordings to confirm ongoing big band activities are there if you investigate deeper (although the post-1947 recordings initially often were either airshots, concert recordings or transcriptions because the AFM under Petrillo called out another recording strike effective as of 01/01/1948 that largely axed commerical recordings during 1948).

 

Got it, thank you.