Ira Gitler's Swing to Bop

[Rabshakeh]

I am currently reading (albeit slowly due to time constraints) this book for the first time.

I am quite amazed at how good it is. Extremely exciting. It makes me want to stop reading and put on records at every point then plunge back in, which is surely what a good book on jazz should do.

Plus, it is in the musicians' own words, and apparently without the glaring leading questions that, for me, ruined the more famous Notes and Tones.

Very strange that it is not among the first books recommended on jazz, and that it is not in print in a glossy edition, but is just the same old tatty thing from ages ago. The contrast to the stodginess of the main jazz histories like Ted Gioia's is very marked. Unless there is some sort of catastrophic collapse in quality coming around the corner, it is the book that I would give to a young jazz fan, without reserve.

Any other views on it? Feel free to tell me I am wrong or that there is some gruesome history to it that keeps the book out of the To Read lists.

Edited July 3, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[jazzbo]

I read this nearly three decades ago, and re-read it about fifteen years ago. I guess I'm due for a re-read soon enough, I may have to dig my copy out of storage next time I make an archaeological expedition into my unit.

A great jazz book, as you say. Among the best. 

[jlhoots]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

I read this nearly three decades ago, and re-read it about fifteen years ago. I guess I'm due for a re-read soon enough, I may have to dig my copy out of storage next time I make an archaeological expedition into my unit.

A great jazz book, as you say. Among the best. 

👍

[mikeweil]

To me, one of the indispensable jazz books.

[Jim Duckworth]

It is readily, easily, and freely available on Archive.org-otherwise I would have had to make an archeological expedition of my own.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

You can get it very inexpensively on https://www.abebooks.com/

Edited July 3, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Peter Friedman]

⭐⭐⭐

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

I am currently reading (albeit slowly due to time constraints) this book for the first time.

I am quite amazed at how good it is. Extremely exciting. It makes me want to stop reading and put on records at every point then plunge back in, which is surely what a good book on jazz should do.

Plus, it is in the musicians' own words, and apparently without the glaring leading questions that, for me, ruined the more famous Notes and Tones.

Very strange that it is not among the first books recommended on jazz, and that it is not in print in a glossy edition, but is just the same old tatty thing from ages ago. The contrast to the stodginess of the main jazz histories like Ted Gioia's is very marked. Unless there is some sort of catastrophic collapse in quality coming around the corner, it is the book that I would give to a young jazz fan, without reserve.

Any other views on it? Feel free to tell me I am wrong or that there is some gruesome history to it that keeps the book out of the To Read lists.

You nailed it and your reaction is spot-on. This is one that I have already read more than once and yet would enjoy picking up again at ANY given moment (as one of surprisingly few among the MANY jazz books I have on my bookshelves), starting on it again and continuing without any urge to put it away again too soon afterwards just because I've read it before. It's instructive and entertaining in equal doses over and over again.

If it is not on "recommended reading" lists (surprising - and all the loss of the compilers of such lists) then the only explanation I have is that these lists were compiled too long ago or the compilers (cluelessly enough) figured they'd had the "oral history" base covered by "Hear Me Talkin' To Ya" (which was fine in its time and still is nice but IMO "Swing to Bop" towers sky-high above it today).

If there is to be reading on desert islands, then this is a desert island book for me. Or to make matters clearer, I have owned this book for about 25+ years and remember packing it in my summer holiday gear at least once (possibly more often) on the premise that if the worst should come to the worst and I'd be stuck in my caravan on the campsite on one or more rained-out days then this book would enable me to let my mind wander for as long as the book lasts. Even though I would not have the music handy that goes with the book. Nuff said? I think so ...

Edited July 3, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[JSngry]

It's a wonderful book! And there are airshots of the Henry Jerome band mentioned in the book. If there's a shortcoming to the book, it's that it starts to stray over into documenting the white players who were still following and catching up to the real forefront of the music. Still, it's a most valuable book. 

But so is Notes and Tones. Those aren't "leading questions", those are intentionally consistent questions meant to elicit a range of responses from a range of people.

Letting the musicians speak for themselves to one of their own. That was the stated goal of the book, and it did what it set out to do. 

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

But so is Notes and Tones. Those aren't "leading questions", those are intentionally consistent questions meant to elicit a range of responses from a range of people.

My problem with Notes and Tones is that the questions seem to me to be geared towards getting the response the author is seeking. As a result, there's not really a range of responses. I thought that the few who do give alternative answers like Gordon (barely answers), Blakey or Griffin (who, if nothing else, stands out for sheer rage) were noticeable. Otherwise I found it samey.

[JSngry]

Maybe because a lot of the people felt more or less the same way. For this American reader, that came as no surprise and very much mirrored real-time real-life experiences I was having.

There's actually a lot of individually nuanced answers within the "sameness". And Lockjaw in particular has some very specific things to say.

Maybe time for a re-read? Or a visit to America?

Or both! Come to Texas, I'll take you around.

Don't say you weren't warned, though!!!!

[mikeweil]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Maybe because a lot of the people felt more or less the same way. 

That was my impression, too.

[Rabshakeh]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Maybe time for a re-read? Or a visit to America?

Will try to do both in the near future. Whether Texas will depend on where the wind blows.

[JSngry]

Oh yeah - it would be irresponsible of me to give kudos to the Gitler book without saying that an essential corollary is Dizzy's "autobiography" To Be Or Not To Bop.  There's obviously more in that book about life before and after the "BeBop Revolution", but there is more than enough there about it that is invaluable. Especially valuable are the comments both from and about Budd Johnson, who quiet as it's been kept was a key figure in all the transitions going on.

[Jim Duckworth]

This one takes the same approach to an earlier era.

[Rabshakeh]

6 hours ago, JSngry said:

Oh yeah - it would be irresponsible of me to give kudos to the Gitler book without saying that an essential corollary is Dizzy's "autobiography" To Be Or Not To Bop.  There's obviously more in that book about life before and after the "BeBop Revolution", but there is more than enough there about it that is invaluable. Especially valuable are the comments both from and about Budd Johnson, who quiet as it's been kept was a key figure in all the transitions going on.

That is interesting. Budd Johnson is a particular favourite of mine.

[Gheorghe]

7 hours ago, JSngry said:

Maybe because a lot of the people felt more or less the same way. For this American reader, that came as no surprise and very much mirrored real-time real-life experiences I was having.

There's actually a lot of individually nuanced answers within the "sameness". And Lockjaw in particular has some very specific things to say.

Maybe time for a re-read? Or a visit to America?

Or both! Come to Texas, I'll take you around.

Don't say you weren't warned, though!!!!

Great statements ! 

I have not been reading jazz books lately, but I can say I bought Art Taylor´s book as soon as it came out. I think the interviews were done during a time that was quite a bitter times for most of the interviewed musicians (late 60´s early 70´s ) .

I was quite astonished about the angry Johnny Griffin, whom I always knew as a very optimistic man. 
I had seen both Griffin and Lockjaw so many times in my live . The answers of Jaws seem to be an insult on the mentality of a sensitive and creative musician. It reads much more the points of view of a clerk with an 8 ours job. But I love Jaws for his specific style, from all mainstream musicians he might be a favourite of mine, especially if I want to hear some easy listening relaxing music just to have a good time and fun listening. 

8 hours ago, Rabshakeh said:

My problem with Notes and Tones is that the questions seem to me to be geared towards getting the response the author is seeking. As a result, there's not really a range of responses. I thought that the few who do give alternative answers like Gordon (barely answers), Blakey or Griffin (who, if nothing else, stands out for sheer rage) were noticeable. Otherwise I found it samey.

Gordon ? I don´t remember that Dexter Gordon was interviewed for that book ? 

I don´t have "Swing to Bop" but I have "Jazz Masters of the 40´s" since I was a bop-newbie and it was my source of informations. During my youth I had the chance to do a trip with the "Orient Expres" to Elvetia (Bazel near the French Borderline) and that´s where I found that book in a bookstore, and also found some of the rarest things that otherwise wouldn´t have been available for me (the Xanadu album "Bud in Paris" and the "Mingus Changes 1 + 2). 

I like the way Gitler writes. He must have been almost a kid when he was a regular of the 52nd Street venues and knew all those musicians personally. From his book I also learned more about Bud Powell, who then was a secret spirit to me who practically changed my live regarding to piano though he was a completly misterious person, one about elders rumored that he was a "difficult and abusive artist". 

[Rabshakeh]

1 hour ago, Gheorghe said:

Gordon ? I don´t remember that Dexter Gordon was interviewed for that book ? 

He's the first! But he is barely interviewed. He almost refuses to engage with the questions and just slides off hip and meaningless answers. Like Griffin's rage and Blakey's alternative answers, Gordon's polite indifference stood out to me whe. I read it.

Edited July 4, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Stonewall15]

I would not call Ted Gioia's book stodgy, if you are referring to his "West Coast Jazz" classic. IMHO this is the best book written on the subject. I have re-read it several times and refer to it frequently. 

[Teasing the Korean]

26 minutes ago, Stonewall15 said:

I would not call Ted Gioia's book stodgy, if you are referring to his "West Coast Jazz" classic. IMHO this is the best book written on the subject. I have re-read it several times and refer to it frequently. 

Agreed, I have this, and it is excellent.

[Niko]

Pretty sure this is about Gioia's History of Jazz... the West Coast Jazz book is indeed excellent...

[AllenLowe]

20 hours ago, Jim Duckworth said:

This one takes the same approach to an earlier era.

I would avoid that book - there are no, IIRC, citations and I know that one of its key quotes - Bird explaining how he came up with the idea of using upper chord intervals - was discredited years ago. I honestly don't remember where this was done, but I was able to convince the Burns people not to use it in the jazz series. After that, I would not trust the book in general.

Edited July 4, 2023 by AllenLowe

[Rabshakeh]

On Gioia, yes. I did mean the general history book. Actually it is perfectly fine, although I think its treatment of the jazz of the mid-40s is a weaker section, since it misses the multiplicity of what was actually happening. 

Edited July 4, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[Peter Friedman]

I too have a highly positive view of Ira Gitler's "Jazz Masters of the Forties". As Georghe indicated, Gitler was right in the middle of the jazz scene in New York City in the late 40's, and 50's. He knew most of the musicians, and also was active in recording many of the musicians at Prestige Records.

[AllenLowe]

6 hours ago, Peter Friedman said:

I too have a highly positive view of Ira Gitler's "Jazz Masters of the Forties". As Georghe indicated, Gitler was right in the middle of the jazz scene in New York City in the late 40's, and 50's. He knew most of the musicians, and also was active in recording many of the musicians at Prestige Records.

we should note that Jazz Masters of the '40s was actually, in large part, written by the pianist Dick Katz - who was quoted in it at such great length that I think he should have been given co-writer credit.