Ellington in Order

[jazzbo]

I don't think you'll ever get there. . . not sure there's a Sony version.

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, jazzbo said:

I don't think you'll ever get there. . . not sure there's a Sony version.

Because it will take forever, at this rate, or because of rights issues?

[jazzbo]

Because I don't think it was recorded on anything Sony has ownership of.

[Steve Gray]

Volume 2 now on Amazon and presumably other streaming services

[JSngry]

Calendar marked! 

07/14/23 Ellington In Order, Volume 2 (1928-30)

08/11/23 Ellington In Order, Volume 3

09/15/23 Ellington In Order, Volume 4

10/13/23 Ellington In Order, Volume 5

11/17/23 Ellington In Order, Volume 6

12/15/23 Ellington In Order, Volume 7

[JSngry]

So glad to have this on Spotify. Easy to access at the times and places of my choosing.

Wellman Braud was a MONSTER!!! 

[miles65]

On 6/18/2023 at 8:47 AM, miles65 said:

This compilation covers CD 1 and 2 up to track 4 of the big RCA box and CD 1tracks 1-19 of the Okeh Ellington. Leaving out the alternate take of Black and Tan Fantasy. Also the Pathé and Plaza group sessions are missing. In total 15 tracks are missing.

From the DUKE LYM mail list:

The new release is not including several Columbia / OKeh sessions (April 4, May 28, August 2, November 20, 1929; April 3, 1930); shouldn't they be owned by Sony as well? After 1928, it is focused on the RCA Victor material.

Chuck Granta sorted out this in a comment he asked me to puplish on the DESS' website and Ian Bradley has also published it.

Here is his comment.

"Some collectors may be under the impression that because those labels were at one time owned by ARC that Sony Music still has the rights to them. That is incorrect; those labels were sold to EMI way back in the late 1930s, when CBS formed their radio business and bought the old ARC and revived the Columbia name in the United States. 

There are definitely some perplexities when it comes to all of this label ownership business, so I understand the confusion! For example, in France, EMI distributed some recordings under the 'Columbia' and 'CBS' banners.Therefore, they issued the Complete Duke Ellington  series on LP under the CBS label. Many of the tracks are Columbia-owned masters. However, because EMI also owned the rights to the Pathé and associated label recordings, they were able to 'co-mingle' the sides that EMI had the French rights to with the Columbia-owned sides that they had licensing for in France."

----

EMI was sold in 2012 mostly to Universal and partly to Warner (EMI classical and Parlophone). After some research my best guess is that the Pathé Plaza recordings are  now owned by Universal.

That means that from volume 1 only the alternate take of Back and Tan Fantasy is missing. It's on Masters of Jazz volume 3.

Volume 2 covers the Victor recordings from CD 2 track 5 tot CD 4 track 9. From the Okeh Ellington CD 1 tracks 23, 34 and 25 and from CD 2 tracks 1-11 are missing and also the alternate takes of The Mooche and East St. Louis Toodle-oo not included on The Okeh Ellington. The are on Masters of Jazz volume 10.

About the Pathé Plaza recordings: 10 sessions yielded 42 tracks. Most of them are spread over all 12 Masters of Jazz volumes. Missing are from 10-1-1931 Rocking Chair take 3 wich was not included because of the poor sound quality. And I'm so in love with you wich would have been the first track of Volume 13 that was never issued. It is included on Classics 605 Duke Ellington 1930-1931.

 

 

Edited July 16, 2023 by miles65
small addition

[Jim Duckworth]

4 hours ago, miles65 said:

From the DUKE LYM mail list:

The new release is not including several Columbia / OKeh sessions (April 4, May 28, August 2, November 20, 1929; April 3, 1930); shouldn't they be owned by Sony as well? After 1928, it is focused on the RCA Victor material.

Chuck Granta sorted out this in a comment he asked me to puplish on the DESS' website and Ian Bradley has also published it.

Here is his comment.

"Some collectors may be under the impression that because those labels were at one time owned by ARC that Sony Music still has the rights to them. That is incorrect; those labels were sold to EMI way back in the late 1930s, when CBS formed their radio business and bought the old ARC and revived the Columbia name in the United States. 

There are definitely some perplexities when it comes to all of this label ownership business, so I understand the confusion! For example, in France, EMI distributed some recordings under the 'Columbia' and 'CBS' banners.Therefore, they issued the Complete Duke Ellington  series on LP under the CBS label. Many of the tracks are Columbia-owned masters. However, because EMI also owned the rights to the Pathé and associated label recordings, they were able to 'co-mingle' the sides that EMI had the French rights to with the Columbia-owned sides that they had licensing for in France."

----

EMI was sold in 2012 mostly to Universal and partly to Warner (EMI classical and Parlophone). After some research my best guess is that the Pathé Plaza recordings are  now owned by Universal.

That means that from volume 1 only the alternate take of Back and Tan Fantasy is missing. It's on Masters of Jazz volume 3.

Volume 2 covers the Victor recordings from CD 2 track 5 tot CD 4 track 9. From the Okeh Ellington CD 1 tracks 23, 34 and 25 and from CD 2 tracks 1-11 are missing and also the alternate takes of The Mooche and East St. Louis Toodle-oo not included on The Okeh Ellington. The are on Masters of Jazz volume 10.

About the Pathé Plaza recordings: 10 sessions yielded 42 tracks. Most of them are spread over all 12 Masters of Jazz volumes. Missing are from 10-1-1931 Rocking Chair take 3 wich was not included because of the poor sound quality. And I'm so in love with you wich would have been the first track of Volume 13 that was never issued. It is included on Classics 605 Duke Ellington 1930-1931.

 

 

Thank you for sharing this-I was thinking that I could get remastered Okeh Ellington tracks via Ellington In Order but now have a better understanding of the licensing.

[medjuck]

They seem to have left out sessions from The Okeh Ellington that were made under names other than The Washingtonians or Duke Ellington. (Though one listed as by the  The Harlem Footwarmers is included and another one not so there goes that theory.)  

1 hour ago, Jim Duckworth said:

Thank you for sharing this-I was thinking that I could get remastered Okeh Ellington tracks via Ellington In Order but now have a better understanding of the licensing.

 

[Justin V]

I picked up the Centennial box at the end of last year.  I don't think I would have stumped for 20 CDs' worth of downloads at about $8.55 per CD and only paid $200 for the set in shrink, so I'm still happy I have the physical box.

Will the eleven-disc Mosaic be part of this series?  I have the three-disc tasting platter of that in The Real Duke Ellington, so I'd have to put some real thought into hoping for Mosaic to pop up for a price I could handle vs. just settling for the new download.

I hope the 1947-1952 Columbia material gets reissued in this series, as it has not been reissued  legitimately in complete form, as far as I know.  I only have one tantalizing volume as part of the five-disc CD that came out in Europe and would love to have it all.

[jazzbo]

15 minutes ago, Justin V said:

I picked up the Centennial box at the end of last year.  I don't think I would have stumped for 20 CDs' worth of downloads at about $8.55 per CD and only paid $200 for the set in shrink, so I'm still happy I have the physical box.

Will the eleven-disc Mosaic be part of this series?  I have the three-disc tasting platter of that in The Real Duke Ellington, so I'd have to put some real thought into hoping for Mosaic to pop up for a price I could handle vs. just settling for the new download.

I hope the 1947-1952 Columbia material gets reissued in this series, as it has not been reissued  legitimately in complete form, as far as I know.  I only have one tantalizing volume as part of the five-disc CD that came out in Europe and would love to have it all.

Actually the five volume cd/seven LP French sets are pretty darned complete, there's some missing alternates but there not that essential in my opinion. (I have them via Neatwork volumes).

[miles65]

The Mosaic boxes ‘1932-1940 Brunswick/Columbia/Master Duke Ellington’ and ‘Duke Ellington 1936-1940: small group sessions’ are not part of the RCA Victor box. 

[Justin V]

46 minutes ago, miles65 said:

The Mosaic boxes ‘1932-1940 Brunswick/Columbia/Master Duke Ellington’ and ‘Duke Ellington 1936-1940: small group sessions’ are not part of the RCA Victor box. 

Correct.  The question is if it'll be part of the new In Order series 

[miles65]

9 hours ago, Justin V said:

Correct.  The question is if it'll be part of the new In Order series 

They should be these recordings are Sony owned. 

[Steve Gray]

I have read through the explanation given here but I still do not understand why some tracks on "The OKEH Ellington" are not available for this series.

What has happened since 1991, when "The OKEH Ellington" was issued, to bring about their unavailability?

The changes of ownership seem to have been over by 1940. I don't see how the sale of EMI in 2012 is relevant.

[miles65]

This is my grasp of the situation: CBS held on to the Okeh and Columbia recordings and sold the Pathé and Plaza recordings to EMI. The complete Ellington 2 LP sets that appeared on French CBS were produced by EMI and they could use the Pathé and Plaza recordings. EMI got sold to Warner and Universal. And now Sony can’t use the Pathé and Plaza recordings. Why only part of the Okeh Ellington is used in this series is a mystery. Let’s hope it gets solved before the treasure of Oak island.

Edited July 17, 2023 by miles65
Punctuation

[Big Beat Steve]

1 hour ago, miles65 said:

 Let’s hope it gets solved before the treasure of Oak island.

[Justin V]

Although I, like many Duke fans, own much of this and am eagerly awaiting what I don't have, I am glad that it'll all be out there for everyone.  Duke's music is far too important to not be as widely available as possible.

[miles65]

Volume 3 is on line. Only the 2 alternative takes of ‘Sweet Mama’ and ‘Double Check Stomp’  from 12-6-1930 are not included. Included is the Trombone Red and his Blue Six session from 18-6-1931. Both Rust and Lord give a fantasy line up with Ellington as possible piano. But the Ellington band played in Philadelphia that day. And Jabbo Smith was either in Milwaukee or Chicago that day.

The missing Columbia/Okeh tracks from volume 2 might be added at a later day.

Volume 4 will start with the first Brunswick session of 1932. Of course the 30’s were covered by 2 Mosaic sets. So the following volumes should be complete. 

[Big Beat Steve]

On 8/11/2023 at 11:15 PM, miles65 said:

Volume 3 is on line. Only the 2 alternative takes of ‘Sweet Mama’ and ‘Double Check Stomp’  from 12-6-1930 are not included. Included is the Trombone Red and his Blue Six session from 18-6-1931. Both Rust and Lord give a fantasy line up with Ellington as possible piano. But the Ellington band played in Philadelphia that day. And Jabbo Smith was either in Milwaukee or Chicago that day.

 

Amazing (and not the best sign of things about diligent discographers at work 😕) that this "urban legend" is still circulating ...
In my recent vinyl haul at a local record shop I purchased, among others, a copy of "Jazz in Harlem 1926-1931" on Arcadia 2008 that includes the two Trombone Red tracks. The liner notes of this record are dated May 1976 (47 years ago after all) and they strongly advise AGAINST the Ellington theory. The original printing of the Rust discography may be prior to that period but LORD?? (How much research of his own does Lord do after all?? Or is Lord still just a compiler of others' work?)
As my curiosity had been piqued after I had read the liner notes, an online search yielded this (far quicker than I had ever hoped):

http://www.harlem-fuss.com/pdf/bands/harlem_fuss_bands_trombone_red_blue_six.pdf

Definite proof one way or another may still be outstanding (and certainly impossible to provide by now) but this reads like a thorough investigation ... At any rate it should be clear by now that these two tracks are out of place in an Ellington compilation.

[mjzee]

Has anyone compared the sound quality of "Hot And Bothered" on Ellington In Order Volume 1 to this:

https://www.offbeat.com/news/incredibly-clear-duke-ellington-recording-surfaces-online/

 

[medjuck]

2 hours ago, mjzee said:

Has anyone compared the sound quality of "Hot And Bothered" on Ellington In Order Volume 1 to this:

https://www.offbeat.com/news/incredibly-clear-duke-ellington-recording-surfaces-online/

 

Where are these recordings from metal masters to be found?  Do many exist?  I know about metal masters but I never heard of recordings directly from them till today and now there's 2 examples of them on this site. 

[mjzee]

The literature says that many of them (most?) were melted down, probably to assist the war effort.  These still exist because they were sent to Europe.

[medjuck]

Are there any other Ellington recordings from metal masters on-line?

[Big Beat Steve]

18 hours ago, mjzee said:

Has anyone compared the sound quality of "Hot And Bothered" on Ellington In Order Volume 1 to this:

https://www.offbeat.com/news/incredibly-clear-duke-ellington-recording-surfaces-online/

 

Yes, this does sound amazing for a 1928 recording.

I just attempted an aural comparison by listening to the same track on the French CBS vinyl reissue (The Complete Duke Ellington Vol. 1, 1925-1928, CBS 67264). And honestly, taking everything into account (and without any adjustments to the settings of my system for the LP) I don't find this LP reissue significantly worse in fidelity (not blatantly duller or more muffled). In a pinch you might find the banjo in the rhythm section a wee bit clearer to make out on this metal transfer (p.ex. prior to the scat solo).
But that's only me ...

Edited August 22, 2023 by Big Beat Steve