Tough **Altos**?

[Dan Gould]

I think we know what is referred to as "Tough Tenors" (separate from the album by Lockjaw and Griff, though it certainly fits) ... think Buddy Tate, Fathead, Arnett Cobb.

But does anyone play a "tough" alto? I think of the influence of Bird, Benny Carter, Hodges and hesitate to think of anyone.  Well, until yesterday when I listened to something newly acquired and said "that's a tough ... alto!"

Comments/thoughts suggestions appreciated.

[Rabshakeh]

53 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Well, until yesterday when I listened to something newly acquired and said "that's a tough ... alto!"

What was it?

[Dan Gould]

23 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

What was it?

Trying to let a discussion start before I drop a name. He's not well known from what I can see but he has a small discography.

[BillF]

The toughest alto I've heard! 

 

[JSngry]

Hank Crawford

Maceo Parker

Leo Wright

Charles Williams 

[Niko]

Sonny Cox

[jlhoots]

John Zorn

[mhatta]

Earl Bostic was a monster.  After a tough tenor duel (I guess by Arnett Cobb & Al Sears), the tough alto start blowing...

 

Of the relatively younger generation that I have heard live, Bruce Williams and Abraham Burton seem to have an amazingly fat alto sound (when they were in good form). I don't know if that's the case these days.

 

 

 

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

Hank Crawford

Maceo Parker

Leo Wright

Charles Williams 

You know I love Charles Williams but as good as he is on blues he isn't where I'm at on the concept. 

Crawford ... obviously great on blues but again ... maybe too sweet in tone? My first instinct when I saw your post was Jeez how could I forget Hank Crawford but as I think of it .. not so sure.

37 minutes ago, jlhoots said:

John Zorn

Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. 

[Larry Kart]

3 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

You know I love Charles Williams but as good as he is on blues he isn't where I'm at on the concept. 

Crawford ... obviously great on blues but again ... maybe too sweet in tone? My first instinct when I saw your post was Jeez how could I forget Hank Crawford but as I think of it .. not so sure.

Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. 

 

3 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

You know I love Charles Williams but as good as he is on blues he isn't where I'm at on the concept. 

Crawford ... obviously great on blues but again ... maybe too sweet in tone? My first instinct when I saw your post was Jeez how could I forget Hank Crawford but as I think of it .. not so sure.

Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. 

Ernie Henry

[JSngry]

Pete Brown

[jlhoots]

43 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

 

Not getting this at all ... too avant for me. 

That's why I listed him. Depends how you define "tough".

[Dan Gould]

1 minute ago, jlhoots said:

That's why I listed him. Depends how you define "tough".

Does this mean you would extend the (pretty standard) definition of tough tenors to any free/avant player? Does it not lose its meaning at some point?

[Rooster_Ties]

23 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Does this mean you would extend the (pretty standard) definition of tough tenors to any free/avant player? Does it not lose its meaning at some point?

How about Jackie McLean?  I think he’s essentially a tough but arguably slightly more an inside player, than avant.

Or Eric Dolphy? — at least in the studio (live might get to be a little more avant than you’re looking for, Dan).

Or are they too ‘out’ for your definition of things.

[jlhoots]

33 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Does this mean you would extend the (pretty standard) definition of tough tenors to any free/avant player? Does it not lose its meaning at some point?

Depends on what the definition of is, is.

[mikeweil]

Donald Harrison on this album, and with the Head Hunters.

[kh1958]

Sonny Criss seems tough as nails to me.

And among the living, Bobby Watson.

Re Donald Harrison, according to his facebook he just had a heart attack. 

Heart Attack Update:

I had the procedure and it seems to be a success. One of the main arteries in my heart was blocked so this could have a death blow.

Dr. Lasseter and his great team were synchronized to a high level and got me through this ordeal. They are observing me now. I have to carry my I had a heart attack card everywhere now.

I am having a heart attack. Pray for me. I was in critical condition but now I am stable. The doctor will work on me tomorrow.

 

[Dan Gould]

11 minutes ago, kh1958 said:

Sonny Criss seems tough as nails to me.

And among the living, Bobby Watson.

Re Donald Harrison, according to his facebook he just had a heart attack. 

Heart Attack Update:

I had the procedure and it seems to be a success. One of the main arteries in my heart was blocked so this could have a death blow.

Dr. Lasseter and his great team were synchronized to a high level and got me through this ordeal. They are observing me now. I have to carry my I had a heart attack card everywhere now.

I am having a heart attack. Pray for me. I was in critical condition but now I am stable. The doctor will work on me tomorrow.

 

Woh. All good wishes to Donald Harrison.

As for Criss I haven't thought of overtly bop-based altos as tough, but in his case I would probably agree with you.

[JSngry]

Sonny Cox

[Dub Modal]

1 hour ago, kh1958 said:

Sonny Criss seems tough as nails to me.

And among the living, Bobby Watson.

Re Donald Harrison, according to his facebook he just had a heart attack. 

Heart Attack Update:

I had the procedure and it seems to be a success. One of the main arteries in my heart was blocked so this could have a death blow.

Dr. Lasseter and his great team were synchronized to a high level and got me through this ordeal. They are observing me now. I have to carry my I had a heart attack card everywhere now.

I am having a heart attack. Pray for me. I was in critical condition but now I am stable. The doctor will work on me tomorrow.

 

Yeah, I read that. Wild stuff. He personally posted that he was having a heart attack. Glad he's in good hands 

[Peter Friedman]

I was confused right at the beginning. I would not consider either Benny Carter or Johnny Hodges to be "Tough Altos"

To my way of thinking a Tough Alto player would be a hard driving , hard tone player such as we get with Tough Tenors such as Lockjaw, Johnny Griffin, Arnett Cobb, etc.

Jackie McLean would be a great choice to me.

[Dan Gould]

48 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

I was confused right at the beginning. I would not consider either Benny Carter or Johnny Hodges to be "Tough Altos"

 

Jackie McLean would be a great choice to me.

I may have written too quickly, Peter. I was saying that Carter and Hodges and those they influenced were far afield from "tough" altos.

Personally I think of direct links to Bird also being disqualifying for the sort of "toughness" that I am referencing so I wouldn't necessarily go with Jackie Mac but since I acquiesced to Sonny Criss, hey, why not.

 

[Dub Modal]

Hemphill and Joe McPhee

And if not them then how about Sonny Fortune?

Edited June 5, 2023 by Dub Modal

[relyles]

Gary Bartz?

[BillF]

This list is getting so long that someone will be naming Paul Desmond next!