Johnny Griffin with Monk

[mjzee]

I really like Griffin with Monk.  Perhaps of all of Monk's tenor players, Griffin seemed more like his own man before, during, and after his tenure.  He didn't seem to learn from Monk the way Coltrane did; instead, he brought his own thing as he navigated Monk's musical universe.  I actually like him better than Coltrane with Monk, because he's more extroverted and fun.  Any thoughts from those here?

Griffin in 1957 and 1958 burst onto the NYC scene in a way reminiscent of the Adderley brothers.  Looking at his discography, it's pretty incredible who he played with:

April 1957: Blakey (in the Jazz Messengers with Jackie McLean), Lee Morgan, Coltrane, Mobley, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers, Clark Terry, Philly Joe

May 1957: Blakey with Monk

October 1957: Sonny Clark

February 1958: Donald Byrd, Pepper Adams, Kenny Drew, Wilbur Ware

July/August 1958: Blue Mitchell, Curtis Fuller, Monk with Roy Haynes

September 1958: Nat Adderley, Julian Priester, Tommy Flanagan, Jimmy Garrison, Chet Baker, Al Haig, The Three Sounds

October 1958: Randy Weston, Melba Liston, Ahmed Abdul-Malik, Machito

[Larry Kart]

I've been a Griffin fan from the first but don't particularly cherish his work with Monk. Seems to me that he often got wound up filling all the space afforded to him with virtuoso licks. Of all the saxophonists who played with Monk, I think one of the best was Lucky Thompson, though there's not a whole lot evidence of that pairing. Rollins too, of course.

[BillF]

Not a very original idea, but I think Monk found his man when he hired Charlie Rouse.

(The longevity of the arrangement adds weight to my opinion.)🙁

[JSngry]

I think that Griffin was kind of a known quantity amongst musicians before coming to New York.

Not a tenor player, but who I really like with Monk was Ray Copeland. 

[jazzbo]

I like Rouse with Monk a lot. Paul Jeffrey too. Those two I like the most in the tenor chair with Monk. I would have loved to have seen Paul Gonsalves in the tenor chair in a Monk Quartet. Like Rouse he was in the Ellington, Basie and Gillespie bands as well. Paul and Thelonious would have been interesting to hear playing together.

Edited May 24, 2023 by jazzbo

[John L]

15 hours ago, BillF said:

Not a very original idea, but I think Monk found his man when he hired Charlie Rouse.

(The longevity of the arrangement adds weight to my opinion.)🙁

Rouse may not have been as interesting, in and of himself, as some of Monk's other tenors.  But he played the role of a foil for Monk extremely well.   There are sublime moments when Rouse is playing something rather plain and Monk is comping behind him beautifully. 

 

Edited May 23, 2023 by John L

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Not a tenor player, but who I really like with Monk was Ray Copeland. 

Thinking of trumpet players, I like Thad Jones the best with Monk, with Copeland a close second. 

Monk needed a tenor player finding a balance between thematic improvisation and working the changes, avoiding standard licks. So Rollins maybe the best. Rouse never got in the way and did not just run the changes, but was limited compared to all others. But he simply worked fine in this context without causing trouble, which may have been the most important part.

56 minutes ago, John L said:

Rouse may not have been as interesting, in and of himself, as some of Monk's other tenors.  But he played the roll of a foil for Monk extremely well.   There are sublime moments when Rouse is playing something rather plain and Monk is comping behind him beautifully. 

Agreed!

[JSngry]

The only problem I run into with Rouse is that he kept playing after he ran out of ideas. And then he still played some more. And then yet some more! 

But really, that was Monk's fault. It was his band. 

That's what makes that high school record so good, they hit it and quit it with nothing wasted. 

[Joe]

I like the Griffin-Monk Five Spot dates just fine, but, yes, Griffin can sound a little more superficial than some of of other horns players that worked with Monk on the regular.

I wish there were more recorded evidence of Julius Watkins playing with Monk. And I wish there were more Ray Copeland to hear, period.

 

 

[JSngry]

Randy Weston, at least. 

[Joe]

11 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Randy Weston, at least. 

Yes, that Montreux '66 date is superb.

[JSngry]

The Dawn record is a real sleeper. 

[soulpope]

Griffin with Monk one of his finest hours ....

[Gheorghe]

Johnny Griffin was the first US-musician I heard when I was around 15 and the story repeated itself when my younger son also heard him when he was 15, so it´s almost a family affair ...

I love to listen to Griffin, but he is not my absolute favourite on tenor. Very much showcase, that´s true. Very very nice those two albums at Five Spot, really !

But for star saxophonists who had short tenures with Monk, I like Trane better. 

And for strictly Monk, which is my main purpose I love Charlie Rouse most, for his sound and for his phrasings  because he really seems to be Monk´s alter ego on stage. For really getting inside Monk I prefer Charlie Rouse. 
Paul Jeffrey not as much. After Rouse he seems to be a disappointment for me. I heard extended live sets of Jeffrey with Monk from 1972 and 75 but Jeffrey seems to have a complete different style. I was not familiar with Jeffrey´s playing until then, had heard about him only from the years when he arranged for Mingus and sometimes was added on tenor in the studio, but I think without soloing....

[mikeweil]

11 hours ago, JSngry said:

The only problem I run into with Rouse is that he kept playing after he ran out of ideas. And then he still played some more. And then yet some more! 

But really, that was Monk's fault. It was his band. 

That's what makes that high school record so good, they hit it and quit it with nothing wasted. 

Absolutely to the point!

[Mark Stryker]

15 hours ago, mikeweil said:

Thinking of trumpet players, I like Thad Jones the best with Monk, with Copeland a close second. 

Related: Yes, Thad sounds fantastic with Monk because of the balance of thematic unity and total spontaneity of his trumpet solos. Those same qualities would have made also made him an ideal trumpet player for Sonny Rollins and the one track that survives with both improvising, "52nd Street Theme" on The Standard Sonny Rollins, proves it. Frankly, Thad really was a better match for Sonny than Don Cherry in the sense that Thad and Sonny's natural aesthetics were closer, both deeply rooted in bebop and abstracting the changes from a place of deep knowledge and technical control. I love Cherry, but if Sonny and been willing to keep a band together for longer, Thad would have been a GREAT longer-term solution -- at least for Sonny. Not sure if that would be great for Thad's ultimate destiny as a composer, arranger, and band leader, but it would have been a perfect showcase for his imagination as an improvisor.  

Imagine Sonny, Thad, Cranshaw, McCurdy c. 1963-66. Now add Bley. I'd like to either of those records. 

[JSngry]

Did John Gilmore ever work with Monk? 

[Larry Kart]

14 hours ago, Joe said:

I like the Griffin-Monk Five Spot dates just fine, but, yes, Griffin can sound a little more superficial than some of of other horns players that worked with Monk on the regular.

I wish there were more recorded evidence of Julius Watkins playing with Monk. And I wish there were more Ray Copeland to hear, period.

 

 

The obvious secret of Rouse's long and often tedious solos with Monk is that they relieved Monk of the responsibility of filling up all that space himself.  

[Mark Stryker]

35 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Did John Gilmore ever work with Monk? 

Can't answer for sure, but the fact that Gilmore is not indexed in Robin Kelley's Monk biography is a strike against the possibility.

[JSngry]

The man needed to dance! 

[Peter Friedman]

This discussion made me wonder about how trumpet player Joe Gordon and tenor man Harold Land fit with Monk, so I pulled the CD and listened to it.

In my view Joe Gordon works very well with Monk. His solos are thoughtful and relates well to the tune being performed.

Harold Land surprised me by sounding highly influenced by Charlie Rouse, who also solos on the session. Land's sound and approach is, to my ers, very Rouse-like.

Had Joe Gordon and/or Harold Land worked for a lengthy period with Monk, I suspect they would have turned out to be terrific colleagues. The album on which they appear with Thelonious was a one off, which in such a sort time I found highly enjoyable. "Thelonious Monk Plus Two at the Blackhawk".

 

[Eric]

3 minutes ago, Peter Friedman said:

This discussion made me wonder about how trumpet player Joe Gordon and tenor man Harold Land fit with Monk, so I pulled the CD and listened to it.

In my view Joe Gordon works very well with Monk. His solos are thoughtful and relates well to the tune being performed.

Harold Land surprised me by sounding highly influenced by Charlie Rouse, who also solos on the session. Land's sound and approach is, to my ers, very Rouse-like.

Had Joe Gordon and/or Harold Land worked for a lengthy period with Monk, I suspect they would have turned out to be terrific colleagues. The album on which they appear with Thelonious was a one off, which in such a sort time I found highly enjoyable. "Thelonious Monk Plus Two at the Blackhawk".

 

That may have been my first Monk album ~ 40 years ago, so always had a soft spot for it. 

[Gheorghe]

19 hours ago, JSngry said:

Did John Gilmore ever work with Monk? 

Another Sun Ra related saxophonist comes to my mind: Pat Patrick. I´m sure he played with Monk since he is mentioned in some liner notes, as he played some nights with Monk. Patrick also played bari, right ? 

Anyway I would have liked to hear more of the Monk with more avantgarde oriented players. Monk with Cherry would have been wonderful for me, and not to forget it´s mentioned that once Beaver Harris played the drums on a gig Monk had. I don´t know what period it was when Pat Patrick played with Monk, maybe after Rouse had left and before he got Paul Jeffrey. I think I would have preferred to hear Patrick. 

[Niko]

indeed, just looked into Kelley's book, it's early 1970 between Rouse and Jeffrey, Kelley mentions btw that Patrick played tenor for this gig (but maybe bari as well)... Apparently, Wilbur Ware was making most of the suggestions for personnel in this phase of the Monk band, he first asked Dewey Redman as Rouse's replacement (turned them down), then Patrick (who was there for a few months) then altiost Clarence C Sharpe (who couldn't make it) then Jeffrey 

[Quasimado]

My feeling about Monk was that he was actually fairly conservative as to who he let on the bandstand. If they could play well through his changes he was happy. - if not, particularly the freer players, he was not interested.