'Busy' albums w/ complex interplay (esp. drums), but with deceptively quiet/understated playing throughout -- like Konitz "Motion" (Elvin) or Metheny "Q&A" (Haynes)

[Rooster_Ties]

Seems like I don't have nearly enough of stuff like this in my collection.  Lee Konitz' Motion (especially the first of the 3-disc set, the one that's all Elvin) -- and Pat Metheny's Question and Answer, with the incredible interplay of Roy Haynes and Dave Holland -- are the two best examples I can think of off the top of my head.

And I guess this is also a call for suggestions specifically for albums with more of Elvin in this kind of Motion mode -- incredibly understated and SO tasteful, but also fairly busy (almost continuously!), but somehow not overly busy (maybe because his playing is so understated).

And where else can I find more Roy Haynes playing in this kind of way too?

And anybody else?? -- especially albums that are deceptively quiet and maybe a little sparse in terms of instrumentation and band size.

I guess I'm open to anything, but I *don't* think I'm looking for the most ECM-ish of production values, if you catch my drift.  Busy, lots of interplay, but quiet, understated -- and NOT all hidden behind that ECM 'sheen'.  (But I guess don't omit ECM, in case I'm being boneheaded again and being too self-limiting.)

Motion and Question and Answer make my brain tingle (especially the drummers) -- and I want more of that.

[colinmce]

Andrew Hill's Smokestack certainly fits the bill with Roy, it's an unusually interactive album for Blue Note. Ditto Destination: Out!. Now He Sings, Now He Sobs is another one where Roy goes off with Miroslav Vitous on one of the most intensely focused albums there is.

RE: the Elvin question, some of my favorite Art Blakey playing is on the Herbie Nichols stuff, which definitely shows a different side of his playing. The bass in that music is a little more in a timekeeping role, but Blakey is hyper-responsive. 

Mingus & Danny Richmond on Trio.

Obviously a lot of this in Paul Bley's early music. Keith Jarrett's standards trio seems maybe too obvious an answer (when they weren't overplaying, which .... is most of the time.)

I can't say it's understated by *this* definition, but one of the best examples of this in Cecil Taylor's music is Student Studies; Silva and Cyrille are on another plane. It's hard to describe what they're doing. It's not holding back, but it's not playing out either. It's just deep deep deep, a whole other thing.

Another standout in the free-ish realm is the Giuseppi Logan albums on ESP with Milford Graves and Eddie Gomez/Reggie Johnson. Ditto Graves on the Lowell Davidson LP alongside Gary Peacock.

The classic Joe Maneri recordings are the definition of "deceptively quiet". Randy Peterson does things nobody else has ever done. The music in front of him burns with an understated intensity but he is always playing LOUD and at the same time, I think you can call it understated in some mystical way.

Plenty of examples from the world of free improvisation, but I don't think that's really what you're looking for. In terms of "understated" playing, TR!O with Mats Gustafsson, Gunter Christmann, and Paul Lovens were always remarkably keyed in. 

[Rooster_Ties]

Seems like Billy Higgins is a master of this kind of playing, and yet I’m not sure I can think of any album he’s on that’s ‘understated’ enough — overall — to qualify.

What am I overlooking?

[Simon8]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGoFjl_8Pbw

The opening track of The Individualism of Gil Evans, "Time of the Barracudas", first came to mind (with Elvin on drums).

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Simon8

[clifford_thornton]

Lowell Davidson Trio on ESP

[colinmce]

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Seems like Billy Higgins is a master of this kind of playing, and yet I’m not sure I can think of any album he’s on that’s ‘understated’ enough — overall — to qualify.

What am I overlooking?

Change of the Century and Evidence.

[Rooster_Ties]

I kept going back and forth about posting the studio version of Brad Mehldau's version of Radiohead's "Knives Out" (from the first album Mehldau did after Jeff Ballard joined his trio in 2005)-- and had all but decided against posting it (because, although the drumming is both really busy and fast, it's also somewhat louder than what I'm looking for).

BUT, this *live* version from 2006 definitely gets closer to what I'm talking about -- and Ballard's playing here is just lovely...

 

[JSngry]

Roy.

 

[clifford_thornton]

 

[Gheorghe]

oh, even the title of that topic was difficult for me to read/to understand 😄

What is a "Busy album". 

You mean records were you just can´t tap your feet, more the kind of albums or settings where you have to figure out things ? 

Well yes: In my case, even if it is more quiet or more stuff you must figure out, the most important thing always is the drums. I couldn´t "survive" without drums.

So well, let me see: My first choice of something "quiet" where you have good and fitting drum patterns is the wonderful stuff Ornette Coleman recorded mostly in the late 60´s, like "Garden of Souls" which is IMHO one of the most beautiful things I ever heard (Elvin Jones on drums !!!) , and the first tune on the album "Ornette at 12". This tune also appears on a later Caravan of Dreams stuff with a string group together with Ornette Denardo Coleman on drums. That sounds great. 

Charles Mingus with Danny Richmond on the more rubato kind of sections, like the more open versions of "Orange was the Colour of her Dress". Hear what Danny does on that. Or "Sue´s Changes", same thing.....

And there are many examples where Max Roach does it. Especially on "Scott Free" or "Free Scott" or how the title is.  

 

[Д.Д.]

14 hours ago, clifford_thornton said:

 

👍

[John L]

What about Philly Joe playing behind Miles, or behind Kenny Dorham on Whistle Stop (in both cases with Paul Chambers)?

Edited May 10, 2023 by John L

[Д.Д.]

 

https://destination-out.bandcamp.com/album/berlin-abbozzi

[Simon8]

18 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

I kept going back and forth about posting the studio version of Brad Mehldau's version of Radiohead's "Knives Out" (from the first album Mehldau did after Jeff Ballard joined his trio in 2005)-- and had all but decided against posting it (because, although the drumming is both really busy and fast, it's also somewhat louder than what I'm looking for).

BUT, this *live* version from 2006 definitely gets closer to what I'm talking about -- and Ballard's playing here is just lovely...

I liked that! As Colinmce mentioned, early Bley - especially with Barry Altschul - would echo that vibe: 
 

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, Д.Д. said:

 

https://destination-out.bandcamp.com/album/berlin-abbozzi

Great album!

[clifford_thornton]

Yes indeed.

The drum parts written for Cleve Pozar on Dixon's Intents and Purposes are pretty incredible as well. Whole record is a masterpiece. But I have a hard time thinking of his music as understated in any way!

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, clifford_thornton said:

I have a hard time thinking of his music as understated in any way!

Think of my use of the term "understated" as me trying to find a word that means the opposite of "uproarious".

In other words, quiet (drumming) with an attack that doesn't try and draw attention to the playing -- BUT what's being played is really active and every shifting.  And ideally, in a larger context where the entire group is also playing in a deceptively unassuming way.

There's largely a ton of stuff going on from every player on Pat Metheny's Question and Answer album (nearly every track) -- and yet I could play that album on my desk at work at a moderate volume, and practically NO ONE would ever notice.  The timbre of Lee Konitz' alto sticks out slightly more (that Pat's guitar), but I can easily play Motion with Elvin with my wife in the room, and she'll barely notice it either.

And yet, when you turn either of them up just a little bit more, and really listen -- there's SO much going on, like everyone is half-soloing all the time, every measure, on every track.  And Elvin and Roy are largely the reasons.

[JSngry]

Or not. 

[clifford_thornton]

3 hours ago, Rooster_Ties said:

Think of my use of the term "understated" as me trying to find a word that means the opposite of "uproarious".

yeah, I wouldn't put Bill Dixon in this category.

the SME can get into an uproar but it is another vibe entirely.