Women and Mosaic Records

[gmonahan]

On 5/5/2023 at 7:02 PM, John L said:

Historically, the majority of great female jazz musicians have been vocalists.   Mosaic has issued box sets for Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Anita O'Day, Dinah Washington, and even Mildred Bailey.   There certainly would have also been a Billy Holiday set if all her studio recordings had not already been reissued in lavish box sets by Columbia, Decca, and Verve.   I don't really understand the charge of sexism. 

They also did the Peggy Lee/June Christy Capitol Transcriptions set.

[Face of the Bass]

So, I deleted all my previous comments from this thread. I don't really want to be engaged in this board anymore. I understand that Mosaic has done a lot of work of historical value over many years. What I also believe is that Mosaic, despite being a private company, sees its mission as more than profit but also as providing the world with a public good. Mosaic is not Wal-Mart. They are a small business interested in the historical preservation of jazz.

My initial post specifically identified the problem as the underrepresentation of female instrumentalists (ie non-vocalists) in their catalog. We know that jazz historically has excluded women from these roles, in ways that have undoubtedly hurt jazz by depriving it of who knows how many women pianists, drummers, trumpeters, saxophonists, trombonists, bassists, etc. etc. 

For this reason, I think it is doubly imperative that those women instrumentalists who did manage to record have their work documented and preserved. I don't at all buy the excuses made here on Mosaic's behalf. Mary Lou Williams's discography is a mess as far as reissues are concerned. A Mosaic set would have happened if it had been a priority for the company. Same for Jutta Hipp (they could have done a set long before the Be! one came out, which has had scant circulation in the United States anyway). A Shirley Scott set would be particularly valuable because it documents a woman who did many dates as a leader that are actually pretty difficult to find in decent condition now. Mosaic had no problem releasing a set devoted to her husband, Stanley Turrentine. Why not Shirley Scott? It's a worthwhile question.  

Years ago, I identified a similar problem in the work of the Criterion Collection, which has as its mission the preservation of important works of world cinema. Until about 8 years ago, the Criterion Collection had not released a single film by an African director. Implicitly, Criterion was saying that African films were not significant to the art of cinema. As someone who has a doctorate in African history, I knew that there were many powerful and important African films, and I strongly felt that Criterion needed to rectify this. They have improved somewhat in recent years, but not nearly enough. 

Some people call this "woke," a term that has now been abused by conservatives to the point of unintelligibility. It is not "woke." It is simply asking that artists overlooked by historians have their work valued and respected. There has always been a tendency in jazz circles like this one (or the old one at JazzCorner) to reject any attempt to politicize the music by bringing these issues up. But I strongly believe that these are the exact issues we should be talking about and debating. 

The hostility to my initial post has me feeling that a majority of people on this board do not agree with me about this. I guess this really just is a Mosaic fan site, where people get together to brag about their collections, anxiously document their purchases, and otherwise engage in consumerist fetishism of the sets as objects. Look at most of the threads about the individual Mosaic sets. They usually start out with the initial announcement of the set, then either posts expressing excitement or disappointment in the concept of the set. Then people document their orders, when they get tracking numbers, and when the sets arrive. Then, the thread kind of goes away. There is little actual criticism, analysis, or meaningful discussion of the music itself, let alone its broader historical context or political meaning. 

I find this disappointing. But I think most people on the site prefer it this way. So, my own dissatisfaction with the quality of discourse on the music being what it is, I think any further participation from me on these questions will just be taken as trying to ruin the mood. So, I will stop talking about this here. My apologies for starting the thread in the first place.

If there is anything positive that has come from this for me, it is that I want to hear much more from women artists in jazz. It matters to me. I picked up the Craft recordings set of Eddie "Lockjaw" Davis with Shirley Scott. I got the expensive vinyl version. The sound is excellent and the liner notes are economical but enlightening. I recommend it. Scott has an approach to the instrument that allows it to breathe within the broader group, rather than dominating the band as many organ players do. I also have placed a pre-order for the forthcoming Dorothy Ashby set. Yes, it is expensive. But it costs about the same as ordering the last two or three Mosaic sets combined. I'd rather have the Ashby set than any of those Mosaics, so that's a fair trade. Quality over quantity. 

As I am a historian and researcher, I am hoping to use this conversation as a jumping off point for better understanding the music and lives of women instrumentalists in jazz. There is not nearly enough written on the subject. As I have previously published books and done much oral history in my life, I am considering starting a broader project on the subject. That's what I can do to put my "money" where my "mouth" is. I'd be terrible at running a record label, but I can write and try to make an impact that way.

Have a nice rest of your week, everyone. 

[Big Beat Steve]

To the best of my understanding, no one around here said that women instrumentalists were not deserving of more widespread reissues. But it just is that at this point (of the reissue market at large and of the situation at Mosaic) it does seem to me (even as a VERY casual buyer of Mosaic product and certainly not a Mosaic fanboy) that they just cannot afford (and therefore are unwilling) to do a set that looks very much like it will be uneconomical, to put it mildly.
Not to mention licensing problems which - again - have nixed more than one MALE instrumentalist project too.

As for politicising the music, you can only go so far before this is bound to turn nasty. And the point of nastiness is likely to be reached once people get the feeling that they are told they have a political "obligation" to embrace (listen to or buy) this or that music. This is thin ice and a slippery slope ...

Pity, then, that this thread degenerated this way just because there's one here who seems to be unwilling to acknowledge the above realities.

 

P.S. Just to continue the actual thread and its suggestions, here's one artist that for some reason has not been named yet. (Was this because everyone was aware of the recently-released box set linked below, I wonder?) HAZEL SCOTT!

https://jazzbluesnews.com/2023/04/13/review-hazel-scott-great-scott-collected-recordings-1939-57-2023-video-cd-cover/

Too lightweight for Mosaic? Don't know (and don't care). Female instrumentalist (WITH a political angle to her biography) that certainly is given some belated acknowledgment? Definitely. But can anyone blame Mosaic for not going that route now that the potential buyer segment is covered by THIS reissue? (How many Hazel Scott completists would be out there anyway?) 
But isn't the bottom line: Reissues giving more credit to female jazz instrumentalists ARE happening. At least here and there. So ....??

Edited May 11, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[jazzbo]

It just seems a futile discussion as Mosaic will choose to issue sets that they can license and that they feel can sell. I don't honestly believe gender plays a big part in their decisions--I definitely don't feel they are sexist. If tens of thousands of jazz fans were clamoring for complete sets of female jazz artists and they saw a market and could convince companies to lease I believe they would react to that market. But that is not happening.

I'm not hurting for the work of these musicians. I have nearly everything that Mary Lou Williams released. And Shirley Scott. And even Hazel Scott. I'd buy a Mosaic treatment were they to come. I've bought all that Mosaic released this century and before.

I don't believe Mosaic or any company has a moral duty to collate and produce any type of music as some sort of historical necessity or artistic imperative. This is all after all. . . business. We are a capitalist nation, we don't have a social structure to diligently restore or protect any art. I've spent many years of my life seeking out things that are obscure that I feel are artistically important and worthy, it has been an effort and in general a happy pursuit. I've been so successful that I now have to face dismantling a collection that I prize and enjoy. 

Life. It is a fascinating pathway full of rabbit holes and cow pies to navigate. And then it ends. 

[mjzee]

21 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

It just seems a futile discussion as Mosaic will choose to issue sets that they can license and that they feel can sell. I don't honestly believe gender plays a big part in their decisions--I definitely don't feel they are sexist. If tens of thousands of jazz fans were clamoring for complete sets of female jazz artists and they saw a market and could convince companies to lease I believe they would react to that market. But that is not happening.

I'm not hurting for the work of these musicians. I have nearly everything that Mary Lou Williams released. And Shirley Scott. And even Hazel Scott. I'd buy a Mosaic treatment were they to come. I've bought all that Mosaic released this century and before.

I don't believe Mosaic or any company has a moral duty to collate and produce any type of music as some sort of historical necessity or artistic imperative. This is all after all. . . business. We are a capitalist nation, we don't have a social structure to diligently restore or protect any art. I've spent many years of my life seeking out things that are obscure that I feel are artistically important and worthy, it has been an effort and in general a happy pursuit. I've been so successful that I now have to face dismantling a collection that I prize and enjoy. 

Life. It is a fascinating pathway full of rabbit holes and cow pies to navigate. And then it ends. 

This sounds ominous.  I hope all is OK.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I was kind of mystified about this thread and the Mosaic bashing.  There were some attempts to vilify the external designs of the packaging, some vague claims that the sets weren't good, that they are too expensive, that box sets are too big or too expensive, that the focus was too narrow (whatever the heck that actually means) and finally that the company was sexist.  These objections all seem half-hearted and I kept trying to figure out why go after Mosaic.  After all no one is forcing anyone to buy these things.

The one feller mentioned that he didn't like two recent sets he bought and sold them at a loss.  It strikes me that that may be the underlying explanation for these attempts to counter the supposed "deification" of Mosaic: this is a disgruntled customer!  If you are sore about some purchases that you didn't like and lost money when selling them off, this is a way to hit back, I think.  It has me scratching my head because if you buy a new Mosaic you don't like all you have to do is wait till shortly after it goes out of print and then you can probably sell it for at least the original price.

[jazzbo]

23 minutes ago, mjzee said:

This sounds ominous.  I hope all is OK.

In my personal case nothing ominous, just the course of living long enough to have a fixed income. I never made a lot of money, and due to a profitable sale of a home in Austin I was able to make an investment that will turn into an annuity income next month and with a modest pension and social security funds as well I'll do okay. My wife last month walked off her job and decided to retire, which does impact our household as her retirement funds are not as large as mine and monthly income has taken a hit. Regardless of that, we live in a very small expanded cabin near the woods, luckily now paid for, and there's not much storage space here. I have as much of my collections here to play around with but to house all my books, cds, and instruments I pay for a climate controlled storage unit that costs me nearly 400 dollars a month now. My wife keeps attempting to convince me that I don't need 30,000 plus cds and a few dozen instruments and a few thousand books. My defense strategy was barely successful before this economic hit, and she is completely correct that were I to become disabled or expire she would have a massive mess to deal with that she would really really rather not. So. . . it makes sense fiscally. . . and it makes even more sense if I love her, AND I DO. . . to begin to evaluate and downsize and perhaps make a little money taking care of all this. 

And as for Mosaic. . . second and third hand I have heard enough about their situation to believe that "dire" may be an accurate description of what they have gone through this decade and may face in the near future. They have my respect and my appreciation and I wish them well. 

On another forum an audio business that I have supported for decades is facing a chorus of non-customers "suggesting" how they should run their business since they have a backlog of thousands of orders and can manufacture and ship about 15 per week currently. I just really find it distasteful to have persons on the outside, not industry people, not customers, telling a business how they should operate. And I find it rather uncomfortable to see a similar focus on Mosaic.

Edited May 11, 2023 by jazzbo

[JSngry]

They used to take chances as well as sure things. Now that they've done most of/ all of the latter, the former has pretty much stopped. The Tristano thing was a surprise, but they had a partner for that in Dot Time. Still not sure how that worked, not my concern, really. 

So they're old, out of gas, and don't want to go broke before they die.

I am too, but I'm not named Mosaic. Lucky me!!! 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Take a look at the sets currently in print:

    
    Classic Jazz At The Philharmonic Jam Sessions 1950-1957
    The Complete Freddie Hubbard Blue Note & Impulse Studio Sessions
    Classic Black & White Jazz Sessions
    Lennie Tristano Personal Recordings
    The Complete Joe Henderson Blue Note Studio Sessions
    The Savory Collection 1935-1940
    The Complete Louis Armstrong Columbia & RCA Victor Studio Sessions 1946-66

and recently out of print sets:

    #260 The Complete Dial Modern Jazz Sessions (9 CDs)
    #261 The Complete Bee Hive Sessions (12 CDs)
    #262 Classic James P. Johnson Sessions (6 CDs)
    #263 Classic Columbia, OKeh and Vocalion Lester Young With Count Basie 1936-1947 (8     CDs)
    #264 Classic Savoy Be-Bop Sessions 1945-49 (10 CDs)
    #265 Classic Brunswick & Columbia Teddy Wilson Sessions 1934-1942 (7 CDs)
    #267 The Complete Woody Herman Decca, Mars and MGM Sessions (1943-1954) (7 CDs)
    #268 The Complete Hank Mobley Blue Note Sessions 1963-70 (7 CDs)
    #269 Paul Desmond: The Complete 1975 Toronto Recordings (7 CDs)

 

This is by no means bad stuff.  That Lester Young set was pretty important to me.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

My wife keeps attempting to convince me that I don't need 30,000 plus cds and a few dozen instruments and a few thousand books.

Well, you can always back up the CDs and sell the valuable ones to supplement your income.

[jazzbo]

I don't like computer audio, etc.--never has sounded right to me even when a digital engineer set examples up for me. Not going to start that now. I'll be fine downsizing and selling some.

Edited May 12, 2023 by jazzbo

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I am able to keep all my dozens of Mosaic sets in lossless files and photos of the booklets, along with a sizable part of my other jazz records on one of these cards.

Of course I still have all the hard copy sets in a storage unit.  I can't quite bring myself to sell them, especially the Basie sets😕

Edited May 12, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Big Beat Steve]

While I sympathize with the storage problems (I am running out of shelf space myself if I want to keep my collection arranged correctly and am thinking of gradually downsizing in other areas of my "collectomania" myself) these recurrent talks about renting storage units give me the creeps - not least of all because of the (apparently considerable) monthly outlay. Admittedly maybe also because this is an approach that is relatively rare over here.
I wonder when the "Storage Hunters" crew on TV will cut open the locks to a storage unit crammed full with Mosaic sets or a similar collection ... 😕

[sidewinder]

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

While I sympathize with the storage problems (I am running out of shelf space myself if I want to keep my collection arranged correctly and am thinking of gradually downsizing in other areas of my "collectomania" myself) these recurrent talks about renting storage units give me the creeps - not least of all because of the (apparently considerable) monthly outlay. Admittedly maybe also because this is an approach that is relatively rare over here.
I wonder when the "Storage Hunters" crew on TV will cut open the locks to a storage unit crammed full with Mosaic sets or a similar collection ... 😕

They already did that with the guy who used to run ‘Ray’s Jazz’ in London. His cupboards were incredible !

[jazzbo]

7 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

I am able to keep all my dozens of Mosaic sets in lossless files and photos of the booklets, along with a sizable part of my other jazz records on one of these cards.

Of course I still have all the hard copy sets in a storage unit.  I can't quite bring myself to sell them, especially the Basie sets😕

Good for you. It is not something I am going to do.

[Big Beat Steve]

6 hours ago, sidewinder said:

They already did that with the guy who used to run ‘Ray’s Jazz’ in London. His cupboards were incredible !

Was this just staged for the TV series or do you actually mean to say he ABANDANED his storage container and it was auctioned off that way?

[sidewinder]

12 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Was this just staged for the TV series or do you actually mean to say he ABANDANED his storage container and it was auctioned off that way?

It was on TV here quite a few years ago. No storage container or auction involved as I recall. The residence was a flat, which won’t have helped in terms of storage.

Prior to that there was the late Ed Dipple of Mole Jazz with his lock-up full of jazz LPs. That was the subject of a radio programme !

Edited May 12, 2023 by sidewinder

[Big Beat Steve]

Still quite an event ... I do hope the "objects" went to someone who appreciated them.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

4 hours ago, jazzbo said:

Good for you. It is not something I am going to do.

It would take a lot of work to rip 30,000 cds to a hard drive or some other storage.  Takes maybe 10 or 15 minutes per disk. About 10 or 15 years ago I ripped all the cds I had (took quite a while!) and since then have routinely ripped any new acquisitions to a hard drive (and backups). But you could certainly save off all or some of your Mosaics as you sold them with relatively little effort.   If you do make sure to use a no-loss format such as Apple Lossless format (m4a) or flac so that you retain all the information on the cds (and could re-create the cds at will).  This is nothing more than installing the free itunes program, inserting a cd into your drive and choosing to import the disk into itunes (or a similar process with numerous other cd player programs such as MediaMonkey).  You then have a bunch of files (equivalent to the tracks on the cd) which you can move around and play at will.  The music was in digital format on the cd to begin with so playback through the same amplifier with a quality playback system will be identical to the cd.

[jazzbo]

Thanks but this is something I am not going to do. 

[JSngry]

Aw, c'mon, try it!!!! 

[Stompin at the Savoy]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

Thanks but this is something I am not going to do. 

Yeah, it's not for everybody.  I have a friend who is still trying to adjust to the idea of cds.

[Dmitry]

1 hour ago, jazzbo said:

Thanks but this is something I am not going to do. 

Neither will I. I don't see the point of it.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, Dmitry said:

Neither will I. I don't see the point of it.

A couple of points:

1. Create physical space

2. Make money off of the physical object.

While keeping the music.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

6 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Neither will I. I don't see the point of it.

Well the point would be you can dispense with the hard copy - cd, jewel case, etc and keep lot's of recordings on hard drives, thumb drives, pc's , sd cards, etc. And you can also still listen to the music even after you sell it off.   But as I said, this is not everyone's cup of tea and if you don't like it I have no issue with that.

Edited May 12, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy