Women and Mosaic Records

[Larry Kart]

41 minutes ago, John L said:

Historically, the majority of great female jazz musicians have been vocalists.   Mosaic has issued box sets for Sarah Vaughan, Ella Fitzgerald, Anita O'Day, Dinah Washington, and even Mildred Bailey.   There certainly would have also been a Billy Holiday set if all her studio recordings had not already been reissued in lavish box sets by Columbia, Decca, and Verve.   I don't really understand the charge of sexism. 

Even Mildred Bailey? She was a real jazz singer and a great one.

[JSngry]

I am ambivalent about both her and Lee Wiley. 

[mjzee]

Let's not forget the James P. Johnson Mosaic, which included sessions by Lavinia Turner, Sadie Jackson, Bessie Smith, Rosa Henderson, Martha Copeland, Ethel Waters, Clara Smith, Eva Taylor, Ruby Smith, and Ida Cox.

[Dan Gould]

9 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

So knowing a lot of people here like Mosaic you started this thread to do what - point out to all these fans how bad the object of their interest actually is?  That those Mosaic sets fans mention enjoying here are actually not good?  You indicate that you wish the label were like some other labels.  Why?  How in any way does the existence of Mosaic label and its adherents injure you, those other labels, your pursuit of other labels, or your decision not to buy Mosaics?  Why all the put-downs?  Nobody is forcing you to buy Mosaics, like Mosaic sets or be involved with them in any way if you don't like them.  It's as though you resent the fact that people praise them here.  But why should you? Why would you want to change what other people like? Is this all a big attempt to justify your own refusal to buy Mosaics?  You don't need to justify your tastes - we are perfectly cool with it if you don't like Mosaic sets.  You seem to be not cool with it if others like them?

 

Well-put.

10 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

 

I am a schoolteacher and don't have the time or the resources to start a record label. I am most valuable to society doing what I am doing now. 

The proof is in the pudding. Forty years of reissues and none that provide the "Mosaic treatment" to a female artist. That's the evidence.

I sincerely doubt the first bolded statement is the case, when a "teacher" finds :"sexism" without evidence and then screams it from the rooftop. You ought to know that correlation is not causation. 

Whatever your subject, I pity your students. 

[John L]

9 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Even Mildred Bailey? She was a real jazz singer and a great one.

Yes. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise.  I just meant to imply that she was a less obvious choice for a large Mosaic set, particularly if there had been (as claimed) discrimination against women.  

[gvopedz]

Here is what is probably another example of the sexist society and female band members:  While she was a member of the Noble Sissle orchestra, Lena Horne toured with the orchestra together with her mother.  There is a photo of the orchestra that shows Lena Horne in the front row and her mother in the fourth row - the mother was presumably only Lena Horne's bodyguard.  You can see the photo in the American Masters documentary of Lena Horne, at 7'59" of this video:

 

 

[Dmitry]

This is beginning to sound like some kind of woke trial of Mosaic. I can't think of another reissue label giving the works of female jazz artists the exhaustive treatment they've received from Mosaic.

I confess to being a sexist, because I prefer female vocalists to their male counterparts. I will pick Anita O'Day over the Four Freshmen any time. Furthermore, I have beef with Mosaic for not being attracted to the Clare Fischer set I proposed. 

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

I'm starting to think there are more than a few Ron DeSantis fans in this thread. Chronic and severe underrepresentation of female artists in the jazz "canon" is apparently not something that can even be mentioned or discussed, especially if it implicates the sainted Mosaic brand that is deified here. 

Yep, that's it. We are closet deSantistas. Face of the bAss nailed it.

Edited May 6, 2023 by Dmitry

[Ken Dryden]

Mosaic Records has done a great job, uncovering both and overlooked music and presenting it with detailed discographies and liner notes. While not all of their releases have been of interest to me, I skip those and hope that they sell out.

Mosaic has run into problems like disorganized tape vaults or not having full access to them, only to have the licensing label “discover” additional unissued music after a Mosaic set is issued, then they issue their own expanded CDs.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion about an artist or label which would make a dream set.  I have extensive collections of Geri Allen, Mary Lou Williams and Marian McPartland, but since so many of their titles can be readily found at a budget price, it may be hard for Mosaic to justify creating a box for any of them at this time. But then again, the Monk Blue Note and Black Lion LPs were readily available at reasonable prices when that early boxed set was issued at the dawn of the label.

Female instrumentalists have long been underrepresented, though that has changed somewhat over the past several decades with release of numerous titles by various labels. If Mosaic keeps going for another decade maybe we will see one as the subject of a set.

The bottom line for Michael and Scott is can we license the music we seek at an affordable price and is there sufficient potential interest in the subject for us to make a decent profit. I remember the number of sets where they had sales to reduce slower moving titles, which usually were licensed from Capitol. They haven’t revealed their formula because it would likely raise licensing fees or encourage labels to create their own boxes. I think they have done a great job of keeping their prices very reasonable for what we get in a set. 

I have seen no indication in this thread of a bias against female instrumentalist sets. I could envision a Renee Rosnes set, though it seems unlikely in the near future.

 

 

 

 

[Ken Dryden]

One set I would snap up in a heartbeat would be a Toshiko Akiyoshi boxed set of her recordings for 91 Records. I am not sure how many remain in print or if the label would license them at a reasonable price.

I hope Mosaic is considering a boxed set from either broadcast archives or soundboard recordings. An example is the Phil Woods set they issued of all unreleased music. Bill Goodwin is digitizing all of Phil’s shows at Dizzy’s and hopefully some of those will see the light of day. The archives of various jazz festivals, live syndicated series and artist’s own recordings could have some potential for profitable sets. Again, the licensing issues may be the biggest challenge. I would love to hear some of the live tracks broadcast in the NPR series Jazzset without the annoying voiceovers and fade-outs that include complete concert sets.

Younger folks may love downloads or streaming but I prefer physical product. When a new Mosaic set is announced  and I have the artist in my collection, I place my order, even when I have most or all of the music.

[Teasing the Korean]

13 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

Chronic and severe underrepresentation of female artists in the jazz "canon" is apparently not something that can even be mentioned or discussed, especially if it implicates the sainted Mosaic brand that is deified here. 

I'm no fan of Mosaic, but how do they correct a centuries-old bias against women in the arts?  They are doing historical releases, and those releases represent their respective eras.

[Larry Kart]

56 minutes ago, gvopedz said:

Here is what is probably another example of the sexist society and female band members:  While she was a member of the Noble Sissle orchestra, Lena Horne toured with the orchestra together with her mother.  There is a photo of the orchestra that shows Lena Horne in the front row and her mother in the fourth row - the mother was presumably only Lena Horne's bodyguard.  You can see the photo in the American Masters documentary of Lena Horne, at 7'59" of this video:

 

 

Why is that sexist?

50 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

This is beginning to sound like some kind of woke trial of Mosaic. I can't think of another reissue label giving the works of female jazz artists the exhaustive treatment they've received from Mosaic.

I confess to being a sexist, because I prefer female vocalists to their male counterparts. I will pick Anita O'Day over the Four Freshmen any time. Furthermore, I have beef with Mosaic for not being attracted to the Clare Fischer set I proposed. 

 

 

 

Yep, that's it. We are closet deSantistas. Face of the bAss nailed it.

Dmitry -- You're beginning to sound like a nut job. BTW, Fischer was something of a racist.

[Teasing the Korean]

10 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

BTW, Fischer was something of a racist.

Seriously?!?  Do tell!

[Dmitry]

7 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Why is that sexist?

Dmitry -- You're beginning to sound like a nut job. BTW, Fischer was something of a racist.

How can one be something of a racist? He's either a racist or not...

Miles was a racist, Mosaic covered Miles. I like their focus on the genius.

 

[Larry Kart]

Fischer frequently made racist remarks in front of witnesses, but then he was known to be a pantsonfire asshole in many respects, as well as an immensely talented musician, so most people left that stuff go. In particular he claimed that white jazz musicians like himself were more or less ignored as part of racist conspiracy on the part of critics and black musicians. He was only something of a racist because he confined himself to scurrilous remarks, stopping short of, say, cross burning and white hoods.  

[Teasing the Korean]

Is this why he titled one of this albums The Great White Hope?

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Is this why he titled one of this albums The Great White Hope?

In his liner notes he said he "wanted to make jest of the whole thing" - the black/white thing. He posed as a boxer on the cover.

[Dmitry]

 

Herbie Hancock Remembers Clare Fischer

https://jazztimes.com/features/tributes-and-obituaries/herbie-hancock-remembers-clare-fischer/

 

[Ken Dryden]

3 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

 

Herbie Hancock Remembers Clare Fischer

https://jazztimes.com/features/tributes-and-obituaries/herbie-hancock-remembers-clare-fischer/

 

It sounds like Herbie Hancock didn’t think of Clare Fischer as a racist nor did Donald Byrd warn him of potential racism.

It is doubtful that this article would have appeared under the new JazzTimes management.

[Brad]

I can’t believe this silly thread is still going on. 

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, mikeweil said:

In his liner notes he said he "wanted to make jest of the whole thing" - the black/white thing. He posed as a boxer on the cover.

About Fischer's combativeness, IIRC he got into a brawl after challenging another motorist re: a  road rage incident on a L.A.  area freeway and sadly got the crap beaten out of him. The effects of this on his mental and physical well-being were I believe fairly severe.

[hopkins]

Not totally relevant to the discussion, but I happened to listen this week to Blanche Calloway (Chronological Classics). Great music, and an interesting life. Too bad she did not record more. I did not find any videos of her, which is a shame as I understand she was quite a performer.

Carry on!

[Niko]

I'd been thinking about Love Austin... generally, I'd been wondering whether gender ratios were more balanced in the 20s and 30s than in the golden age of modern jazz heros, the 50s and 60s...

i also must admit that I find it a bit weird to accuse a (superannuated) reissue label of biases - unless those biases are more extreme than in the genre they are reissuing - which really doesn't seem to be the case... I would have found it much more logical to start a thread like this one about labels that still record their own new music (like Criss Cross, for a pretty random example out of many)

[Big Beat Steve]

46 minutes ago, Face of the Bass said:

You want women in a pre-defined gender role, as the voice at the front of a band backed by male musicians. Yes, that is sexist. Congratulations.

As I doubt that you can see the existence of female vocalists as a simple counterpart of (or equivalent to) male band vocalists in the REAL life the way it ACTUALLY was during the era in question ("was" because Mosaic is a REISSUE label), this would very much rule out the relevance of male vocalists then, too.
OTOH no doubt you would have dismissed Ina Ray Hutton "at the front of a band backed by male musicians" too. For reasons not difficult to guess.

But it is a fact that quite a few superlative female vocalists with a large body of recorded work did exist and were given the Mosaic treatment. Should they have been discarded because they were "not instrumentalist enough"? Weird ...

Why not accept the fact that NO - you cannot change history (let alone rewrite it, no matter how much some would long to be able to do that). So until the existence of a customer base for a predefined "female leader" Mosaic set can be proven to exist (BTW, @all - may I suggest another one from right in the middle of the period often covered by Mosaic? VALAIDA SNOW!) you are in no position to accuse Mosaic of anything (least of all sexism because many MALE artists have been rejected by them for the same reasons of lack of sales potential) if they just do not see fit to knowingly produce a set that sees them finish in the red.

22 minutes ago, Face of the Bass said:

By putting together sets that document underrepresented female artists. Think of all the sets they did for overlooked male artists. We got a Chu Berry set but never a Mary Lou Williams set. 

You DID take note of the licensing problem evoked before here, didn't you?
And as for the market situation - as outlined by others, your appeal is way too late. You should have said this in the HEYDAY of Mosaic (and see if the licensing problem could have been resolved then). Now they seem to shy away from a lot of artist projects they would very likely have tackled 20 years ago. Understandably, sad to say ...

BTW, let it be said that I'd still be all for a representative "all-female band" box set (because from the tunes that I have heard I do feel many of them would have been quite able to hold their own against many of their their male Swing-era colleagues too). But how likely is that to happen? By ANY reissue label? For obvious sales - and probably licensing - reasons (unless an enterprising Public Domain label would chime in - like Fantastic Voyage did on occasion with relatively obscure artists, but that's an entirely different playing field). Because - how many are out there among the buying public who'd be adventurous enough to tread off the beaten paths of the known and tried-and-tested musicians and "names" from the Swing era? Unless it was forced unto them as part of a "label" package (such as Capitol or B&W in the case of Mosaic, for example).

 

 

Edited May 9, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Dmitry]

31 minutes ago, Face of the Bass said:

You want women in a pre-defined gender role, as the voice at the front of a band backed by male musicians. Yes, that is sexist. Congratulations.

Sequential thinking isn't your strongest characteristic, but I'll try one more time. We are talking about a label that reissued performances from many decades past. I like Anita O'Day, and sold the Four Freshmen set.  If Anita O'Day were backed by a band of binary fission-replicating Martians, and they swung, I'd buy that set in a heartbeat. 

 

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, Face of the Bass said:

 

I pity you, since you can't seem to handle a serious conversation that actually challenges the accepted point of view on this board. You must be a very close-minded human being. 

 

You are not a remotely serious person who should have quit while he was so far behind.  It is remarkable to consider that no one has expressed an ounce of support for your assertion of 'sexism' as the determining factor in Mosaic's releases over the past 40 years. You might reconsider your views but instead you embarrass yourself every single time you post on this thread.