Women and Mosaic Records

[Ken Dryden]

Until someone becomes a stakeholder in Mosaic and assumes the risk from a poor selling set or series of sets, outside advice from anyone about projects to pursue is almost worthless.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Ken Dryden

[scooter_phx]

1 minute ago, Ken Dryden said:

Until someone becomes a stakeholder in Mosaic and assumes the risk from a poor selling set or series of sets, outside advice from anyone about projects to pursue is almost worthless.

Yeah, but it's sure interesting to chat about.

[EKE BBB]

1 minute ago, Ken Dryden said:

Until someone becomes a stakeholder in Mosaic and assumes the risk from a poor selling set or series of sets, outside advice from anyone about projects to pursue is almost worthless.

+1

Plus: we cannot have anything but gratitude to them for these 40 years. Despite the possible ups (90% IMHO) and downs in their releases.

[jazzbo]

1 hour ago, scooter_phx said:

Since a number of comments are concerned about Mosaic as a company because they sell CDs, I wonder if they'd be willing to change/add a format?  They've done it before.  Remember, the first few issues were vinyl only.  I'm sure they've considered (maybe only briefly) hi-res .flac files for their releases.  It would cost them less to release the sets.  Just a stray thought from an early morning mind...

In the past they have stated they have been unable to achieve download licensing from those they lease from. I don't think they can financially handle the risks of releasing LPs in this day and age.

 

Edited May 3, 2023 by jazzbo

[Brad]

23 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

In the past they have stated they have been unable to achieve download licensing from those they lease from. I don't think they can financially handle the risks of releasing LPs in this day and age.

 

A year or so ago I asked about LPs and they said they’re not returning to that format, principally for the reason Lon mentioned. 

[JSngry]

And I will love them forever for not succumbing to the temptation to release sets priced at $30-40 per LP. I mean, old white guys ain't THAT dumb!!! 

[ghost of miles]

33 minutes ago, JSngry said:

And I will love them forever for not succumbing to the temptation to release sets priced at $30-40 per LP. I mean, old white guys ain't THAT dumb!!! 

👍 I’m as big a fan of Dorothy Ashby as anybody, but $250 for a 6-LP set? Hard pass, on this and the “vinyl revival” in general.

[T.D.]

2 hours ago, Ken Dryden said:

Until someone becomes a stakeholder in Mosaic and assumes the risk from a poor selling set or series of sets, outside advice from anyone about projects to pursue is almost worthless.

+1. 100%

These never-ending discussions seem paradoxical, to put it mildly.

Mosaic looks like a small two-man enterprise that is (maybe not so) gradually winding down. Is there any indication that they care about these suggestions?

IMO, one of the points of a project aimed at the niche audience of "jazz connoisseurs" is not needing to "sell jazz" or "broaden the audience". OTOH, as that niche audience ages and dies off, so will the project. However, given the age of the two principals that may not be a big concern.

Edited May 3, 2023 by T.D.

[mjzee]

While I disagree with the initial premise of this thread - that Mosaic should release boxes of women artists precisely and mostly because they are women - they can do an interesting ju-jitsu with a Mary Lou Williams box.  She's obviously a deserving artist for the Mosaic treatment for her place in jazz history and for her musical excellence.  But if they released a Williams box, it would be covered with reverence by The New York Times and other outlets because she's a woman, giving it far more attention than it would have garnered otherwise.  It would easily be nominated for a Grammy, and might even sell out.  I'd buy it, especially if accompanied by a well-researched booklet.

[J.A.W.]

Mosaic's release policy has been discussed here many times, and people tend to forget that they can't afford releases anymore that are not expected to sell well. Their Select series was terminated because it was not economically viable; same with LP sets. There's also the problem of licensing issues, especially when artists recorded for many different labels with different owners, who are often reluctant to license those recordings to be collected in one set - case in point: a Mary Lou Williams set; that will probably never happen, just because her recordings are all over the place. People have also often wondered why downloads are not offered by Mosaic - simple, rights owners refuse to license downloads to Mosaic.
 

Edited May 3, 2023 by J.A.W.

[mjzee]

While licensing issues can be difficult, they may not be insurmountable.  Look at their James P. Johnson set - licensed from many different labels and rights owners.

[J.A.W.]

8 minutes ago, mjzee said:

While licensing issues can be difficult, they may not be insurmountable.  Look at their James P. Johnson set - licensed from many different labels and rights owners.

Sometimes they are, as was the case with the projected Lucky Thompson set years ago. As I understand it a Mary Lou Williams set was also considered at one time, but that was dropped just because of licensing issues.

Edited May 3, 2023 by J.A.W.

[JSngry]

59 minutes ago, mjzee said:

But if they released a Williams box, it would be covered with reverence by The New York Times and other outlets because she's a woman... 

How about because she was a total badass of a musician, an important influence(r) AND a woman? 

[Dub Modal]

29 minutes ago, J.A.W. said:

Sometimes they are, as was the case with the projected Lucky Thompson set years ago. As I understand it a Mary Lou Williams set was also considered at one time, but that was dropped just because of licensing issues.

It would be interesting to know the other projects hampered by licensing issues, especially those pipeline projects that they've kept under wraps. 

A few Mary Lou tracks were included on their Jazz Piano Mosaic Single CD and they're worth the price of admission. 

[Dmitry]

Mosaic made a fatal mistake of getting out of vinyl when everyone else were getting into it. And I don't mean the "original get-out", but the "second get-out". I think they would've done very well, had they kept at it. Just look at what  some of their oop vinyl sets are going for on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mosaic+records&_sacat=176985&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_sop=16

[J.A.W.]

11 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

Mosaic made a fatal mistake of getting out of vinyl when everyone else were getting into it. And I don't mean the "original get-out", but the "second get-out". I think they would've done very well, had they kept at it. Just look at what  some of their oop vinyl sets are going for on eBay.

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=mosaic+records&_sacat=176985&LH_TitleDesc=0&LH_PrefLoc=2&LH_Complete=1&LH_Sold=1&_sop=16

Again, LPs turned out not to be economically viable for them; after all, they're only a 3-man operation these days without the resources to handle post-sales care in case of defective LPs - one of the problems with that format according to the many complaints about bad pressings etc.

[Larry Kart]

3 hours ago, J.A.W. said:

Again, LPs turned out not to be economically viable for them; after all, they're only a 3-man operation these days without the resources to handle post-sales care in case of defective LPs - one of the problems with that format according to the many complaints about bad pressings etc.

 

3 hours ago, J.A.W. said:

Again, LPs turned out not to be economically viable for them; after all, they're only a 3-man operation these days without the resources to handle post-sales care in case of defective LPs - one of the problems with that format according to the many complaints about bad pressings etc.

 

3 hours ago, J.A.W. said:

Again, LPs turned out not to be economically viable for them; after all, they're only a 3-man operation these days without the resources to handle post-sales care in case of defective LPs - one of the problems with that format according to the many complaints about bad pressings etc.

Dmitry -- re: Mosaic's" fatal mistake,"  I could be wrong but I don't think that "everybody else" (on other labels) who "got into" vinyl at that time did so because that thought it would become a "new" hot medium;I think  it just happened that way, and rather faddishly so I believe. Again, who predicted it?

 

[Ken Dryden]

I find these new vinyl issues way overpriced and I'm not sure the ones I've heard have been all that great. The high price per disc whether it is a new release or a reissue (and I have no interest at all in LP reissues that I already own on CD) makes me unlikely to any of them from any label.

[T.D.]

I'm not a vinyl guy (and happy for that given current prices / quality control complaints), but hasn't there been a serious ongoing shortage of vinyl pressing plants? That may be contributing to the price trend.

[Teasing the Korean]

22 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

You can argue that their target audience is now too narrow, but what about then? You haven't said (unless I've missed it) how you'd widen their audience now, but I'd be willing to bet that if it had been widened in that way or those ways twenty years ago, Mosaic would now be long out of existence. Mosaic was designed to fit a particular perceived and then already existing niche or niches, and it did so very well for a long time. If those niches are no longer viable, so be it, but so far I've seen no substitutes being put forward. "Wider" in itself strikes me as virtually meaningless.

I would argue that there has been a diverse and diffuse audience for jazz since at least the 1990s.  I can go into this if anyone cares, but most of you know what I'm talking about.  Still, the total audience for jazz makes it a niche genre.  Mosaic has catered to a niche within a niche.  

Companies can get into trouble if they try to be too many things to too many people, but they can also get into trouble if they have a tiny customer base and do nothing to grow it.  In addition to their box set approach, Mosaic could have diversified their strategy by producing compelling, standalone releases like so many other boutique labels have.  And they really could have used some marketing help, in terms of where they sold, how they packaged their releases, and how they wrote about them.  Their existing copy does not convey one shred of excitement, adventure, or - dare I say - fun.  

All I can say is, I have a number of friends and family members who love jazz and who have extensive LP and CD collections.  And none of them have a single Mosaic release.  But, for 20 years or so, they have kept in business a number of other boutique labels who sell CDs at $20 a throw, who can write compelling copy, and know how to package and market their reissues.  

Mosaic's approach may have worked for a brief period, but it is clearly not working now, as all the "How can we help Mosaic" posts attest.  

 

[Dmitry]

3 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Dmitry -- re: Mosaic's" fatal mistake,"  I could be wrong but I don't think that "everybody else" (on other labels) who "got into" vinyl at that time did so because that thought it would become a "new" hot medium;I think  it just happened that way, and rather faddishly so I believe. Again, who predicted it?

 

Fad it is, Larry, I agree with you. But as fads go, it has been rather long-lasting, going onto its second decade now. Someone will correct me, but I do remember Mosaic still manufacturing vinyl and corresponding CD sets into the late 1990s-early 2000s, when few labels were pressing boxed sets on vinyl. I forget which set was the last one to be made in both vinyl and cd formats, was it the Parlan set? 
When they released Miles at the Plugged Nickel on vinyl in 1994, it was a brilliant idea. I'm almost certain they did very well with their subsequent LP sets. 
It's still not too late for them to get back into the vinyl. I know Bresna talks with the people who run the label; perhaps ask them about that?

[sidewinder]

As JAW said in an earlier post, for Mosaic to return to vinyl would probably be a non-starter. They are no longer geared up for it and the economics of it wouldn’t work. As big a fan as I am of their LP sets, they likely made the right judgement call.

Let’s not forget that this is a 2 to 3 person operation and I’m not sure if these are even full time. They are not Craft or Blue Note Tone Poet, with their organisational/logistics scale and depth.

Edited May 4, 2023 by sidewinder

[Stompin at the Savoy]

4 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Mosaic's approach may have worked for a brief period, but it is clearly not working now, as all the "How can we help Mosaic" posts attest.  

 

I don't understand how you get to "it is clearly not working now".  It's working for me. I usually buy new sets that come out and I also buy quite a few used ones from various sources.  I spend many happy hours listening to them and reading the booklets.  Apparently your standard of success is different from mine.  You appear to believe the Mosaic enterprise is only vindicated if they have a huge volume of sales.  I am glad that Mosaic has high standards and produces products that are different from other labels.  To me this difference is a feature not a bug and I would be disappointed if they decided to turn themselves into a clone of various other labels.  If you like what other labels are doing, by all means buy their products!  None of us Mosaic fans have the slightest issue with that and we are buying from other labels too.  The fact is Mosaic sets are cheaper per disk than the single disk releases you are so fond of touting.  And you get more.  This is inevitably framed by you as: Mosaic sets are too expensive". When people post ideas for Mosaic sets here they are mostly hoping their suggestions will be taken up by the label so they can then buy the records.  The suggestions are not, IMO,  motivated by some sort of pity for poor, failing Mosaic.

I think you are probably right that the whole Mosaic label enterprise is coming to an end.  That is because the original mission of finding treasures in label tape vaults is a finite one.  There are only so many treasures in the vaults to find and restore and remaster and so on.  The business has had a very successful arc over several decades and has produced a body of work which is admirable and still enjoyed by many of us.  But it's a thing with a definite lifetime.  It's like a mom and pop business with only a few employees and they are probably thinking of retiring at some point.  Ending the label would not represent a defeat but rather a recognition that much of what they were able to do along those lines has now been successfully accomplished.

Edited May 4, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[SwingItTrev]

I would buy a Mary Lou Williams set in a heartbeat.

[Dmitry]

8 hours ago, sidewinder said:

Let’s not forget that this is a 2 to 3 person operation and I’m not sure if these are even full time. They are not Craft or Blue Note Tone Poet, with their organisational/logistics scale and depth.

I think you and JAW are possibly substituting the effect for the cause.

A mere fifteen-twenty years ago they were the Rolls-Royce of the limited edition jazz music boxed sets. Why are they a scaled-down firm NOW, when they were so much bigger THEN?

I imagine this could be because -

a. the principals are slowing down because of age, and don't want or can't handle the rigours of larger production.

b. the business isn't nearly as profitable as it was, which means loss of financial muscle to sponsor upcoming projects.

c. other.

Would love them to continue for years. There is still a lot to do!