Women and Mosaic Records

[Teasing the Korean]

13 minutes ago, Dmitry said:

The widows of the Mosaic customers usually cash in on those sets as soon as possible. 

Or they let them go straight to the Goodwill.  

[Dub Modal]

Lol my preferred local used record store had a Tristano set for resale at $140 a couple of weeks ago. That shit is $99 new. 

[HutchFan]

17 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Lol my preferred local used record store had a Tristano set for resale at $140 a couple of weeks ago. That shit is $99 new. 

Yup.  I've seen that sort of thing too.

Caveat Emptor.

 

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

Shirley Scott... I just don't think they have an appetite for ANYTHING that 'black blue collar". I'd be delighted to be proven wrong about that.

I'd love to see a Shirley Scott set too. 

I have no idea what sort of market there'd be for it.

 

14 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Progress happens when "interested folks" stop whining and complaining and create something to make things better.

Yes, this is true.  OTOH, this is a discussion forum.  So it's natural that people would discuss things here, right?  One person's "whining" and "complaining" might just be another person's talking about stuff. 

Heaven knows that any sort of talk about Mosaic isn't going to happen anywhere else in my daily life.

 

30 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Or they let them go straight to the Goodwill.  

Usually without the box and booklet, dammit. 

 

[T.D.]

40 minutes ago, Dub Modal said:

Lol my preferred local used record store had a Tristano set for resale at $140 a couple of weeks ago. That shit is $99 new. 

I'm sure you can find significantly higher offerings at eBay, home of ridiculous listings. 🤣 [Years ago, when I occasionally sold on eBay, there were significant listing fees...that must have changed, judging by the multitude of absurd listings.] I almost never check eBay recording prices any more because the S/N ratio is so puny.

 

Amazon is often even worse, but one seller happens to have this set for a bargain $109.99.

Edited May 2, 2023 by T.D.

[Dan Gould]

4 hours ago, JSngry said:

Mary Lou Williams should have a set, but what would the licensing be? There's always that.

 

Shirley Scott... I just don't think they have an appetite for ANYTHING that 'black blue collar". I'd be delighted to be proven wrong about that.

There's literally nothing in Mosaic's past to make one think that Shirley Scott's music from the 60s-70s fits into Mosaic's wheelhouse for a set.

It would be like a late 60s - early 70s Lou Donaldson box, only without the BN cachet for the label (not to mention the ease they have had dealing with BN for licensing.)

Mary Lou Williams though ... that's a clear contender in terms of era and importance and sidemen - Aside from issues of licensing/labels and that all-important question of demand in this day and age.

[JSngry]

A Groove Holmes PJ set ain't happening either. 

[EKE BBB]

5 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Shit-stirring par excellence here ... first pronounced guilty of "sexism" on what is zero evidence and now its all about "white guys" servicing the needs and desires of other "white guys". Absolutely sick of this garbage.

Go set up your own goddamn company to put out what you think should be put out.  Go put your own goddamn money at stake.  And anyway, what do you care what artists get the Mosaic treatment when it comes from a sexist, racist, all-but-dead company?

Exactly my thoughts, Dan.

[scooter_phx]

7 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Shit-stirring par excellence here ... first pronounced guilty of "sexism" on what is zero evidence and now its all about "white guys" servicing the needs and desires of other "white guys". Absolutely sick of this garbage.

Go set up your own goddamn company to put out what you think should be put out.  Go put your own goddamn money at stake.  And anyway, what do you care what artists get the Mosaic treatment when it comes from a sexist, racist, all-but-dead company?

+1

Also, for those who have complained about the sound of the Savory box, please consider the sources.  Without the enormous dedication by Mr. Savory, The National Jazz Museum of Harlem, and Mosaic, most of that music would have been lost to the wind.  Would you have been willing to sit and cut those discs (yes) or have the means in the 1940's (no) to do something like that?  I think the recordings of the Basie band are just a treasure trove and to hear Hawkins soar on a longer version of Body and Soul just makes my heart swell.  Anyone can complain but I am thankful and very glad to own this box.  <off soapbox mode>

[Teasing the Korean]

8 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

Go set up your own goddamn company to put out what you think should be put out.  Go put your own goddamn money at stake.  

I don't have to start my own goddamn company.  There are numerous boutique labels who are doin' it right.  I have supported those other labels for decades.  Mosaic may have gotten some of my money, but they did not.  C'est la vie.

[JSngry]

Ultimately all that "doing it right" means is that they got their target audience to buy the product whether you "like"  it or not.

If somebody does it better, good for them. Here's hoping that their betterness matters enough to be rewarded. And if somebody doesn't sell it to their target audience, they (or somebody) did it wrong. 

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Ultimately all that "doing it right" means is that they got their target audience to buy the product whether you "like"  it or not.

If somebody does it better, good for them. Here's hoping that their betterness matters enough to be rewarded. And if somebody doesn't sell it to their target audience, they (or somebody) did it wrong. 

Their target audience was obviously far too narrow, based on the fact that they are on life support, and everyone here is trying to think of things to help them out.  And they've done nothing to expand the audience for jazz by primarily selling precious, overpriced box sets to an aging demographic of white men.

[JSngry]

Oh, if I were a betting manperson, I would wager good enough money that the Mosaic customer base of today is indeed old white guys. You could probably get data to prove that.

Hell, I'm one myself (an older white guy). But Mosaic is beginning to bore me, except when they don't. I know the Tristano & Savory sets did anything but. And the Bill Barron set made me cream my jeans. 

But those are increasingly becoming the exceptions. 

But they had a good run, a REALLY good run. Do you think all these old white guys were ALWAYS old? 

[Larry Kart]

21 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Their target audience was obviously far too narrow, based on the fact that they are on life support, and everyone here is trying to think of things to help them out.  And they've done nothing to expand the audience for jazz by primarily selling precious, overpriced box sets to an aging demographic of white men.

 

21 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Their target audience was obviously far too narrow, based on the fact that they are on life support, and everyone here is trying to think of things to help them out.  And they've done nothing to expand the audience for jazz by primarily selling precious, overpriced box sets to an aging demographic of white men.

You can argue that their target audience is now too narrow, but what about then? You haven't said (unless I've missed it) how you'd widen their audience now, but I'd be willing to bet that if it had been widened in that way or those ways twenty years ago, Mosaic would now be long out of existence. Mosaic was designed to fit a particular perceived and then already existing niche or niches, and it did so very well for a long time. If those niches are no longer viable, so be it, but so far I've seen no substitutes being put forward. "Wider" in itself strikes me as virtually meaningless.

P.S. Speaking of niches and the sound quality of the first disc of the recent Tristano box, anyone who is enough of a Tristano admirer to buy that set almost certainly is in one of the tightest niches there is in jazz and would be willing to put up with those sound issues in return for what can be gleaned from those recordings nonetheless. ('m one of those people.) It's not like we weren't warned upfront.

[JSngry]

"Widening" the audience for a static quantity/music is. .. what...silly? Impossible? Evil? Whatever else it is, it doesn't strike me as being a particularly healthy pursuit.

Now, evolving the audience as the music itself evolves, yeah, that's healthy. And it seems to be happening now more than it has for a good while. And the fact that I like only some of it is a good thing, if for no other reason than I'll be dead before the nostalgia for it comes around, so don't look at me to buy all those reissued mp3s, even of the stuff I DO like!!! 

[Brad]

10 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Dan pretty much speaks for me on this "issue." Why is this Mosaic's responsibility?

Amen. 

[felser]

On 5/1/2023 at 10:07 AM, Dub Modal said:

Mosaic just ain't it anymore. This forum is probably the only internet corner where they're discussed on a regular basis in a serious way. I'd recommend looking elsewhere for box set needs/wants at this point. Griping about underrepresentation of female artists is just beating a dead horse.

Agreed.  Last Mosaic boxes I bought were the Clifford Jordan in 2013 and the Mingus Jazz Workshop in 2012.  And while I bought a ton of Selects in the interim, the last big box before those two was the Jazz Crusaders in 2005.

I agree strongly with the Mary Lou Williams suggestion.   The Geri Allen stuff is easy to obtain and works best as standalone albums.  They could do a good Betty Carter box.

A Sonny Simmons/Barbara Donald Mosaic would be awesome, and a great way to FINALLY get 'Rumasuma' on CD.  But it's right up there with the Bill Barron in pipedream land.  They'll probably do something like a Herbie Hancock or Dexter Gordon Complete BN box next to keep the cash registers ringing (and BN themselves already did those boxes beautifully in the 90's).

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

"Widening" the audience for a static quantity/music is. .. what...silly? Impossible? Evil? Whatever else it is, it doesn't strike me as being a particularly healthy pursuit.

Now, evolving the audience as the music itself evolves, yeah, that's healthy. And it seems to be happening now more than it has for a good while. And the fact that I like only some of it is a good thing, if for no other reason than I'll be dead before the nostalgia for it comes around, so don't look at me to buy all those reissued mp3s, even of the stuff I DO like!!! 

Evolving the audience as the music itself evolves sound lovely. But I still haven't heard one word about how to do that from any of you; and I, as a not wholly unplugged-in guy, sure don't know down which alley I should be sniffing. Names please, or even genres? A Monday Minchuro Mosaic? I am fairly sure though that this "evolving" music is about as stable as a greased eel. And you're telling me, if I'm Mosaic, that I should bet my supposedly wobbly enterprise and probably diminishing bankroll on somebody's spider sense!!!

[Stompin at the Savoy]

I don't get all this knocking old white men.  Are we so unworthy a target audience?  We probably spend more on music than teenage men (they lack money) or middle aged men (they have kids to support).  Teenage women are probably listening to Taylor Swift (the attraction still mystifies me) or some other bubblegum stuff, middle aged women are too busy taking their teenagers to Taylor Swift concerts, and older women - you never know they may be Jackie McLean fanatics...

I also don't understand the idea that Mosaic is supposed to save jazz.  What?  It doesn't work like that.

[Adam]

I didn't see anyone knocking old white men, just stating that they are the primary makers & buyers of Mosaic sets.

Then,  they tend to die off.

And young people, without kids but with disposable cash, tend to be the biggest buyers.  And vinyl has passed CDs in sales in the US now. Honestly, a Shirley Scott set of jazz & funky material on vinyl, pitched to DJs and younger folks, would probably sell just fine.

[Dmitry]

Jazz is evolving into the least popular genre.  I'm afraid that Mosaic will soon close. Almost nobody is buying cds, certainly not enough to keep this business afloat. How many copies of  Shirley Scott would Mosaic sell,  a couple hundred? Jessica Williams Mosaic, now THAT is the project I would stand behind, 100%. And IT wouldn't sell more than a few hundred boxes worldwide.

 

 

3 hours ago, Adam said:

Honestly, a Shirley Scott set of jazz & funky material on vinyl, pitched to DJs and younger folks, would probably sell just fine.

Not with that packaging, it wouldn't. People buy with their eyes. Mosaic's black and white style appeals to the old folks, not the hipster crowd. Maybe I'm wrong.

Edited May 3, 2023 by Dmitry

[mjazzg]

Just for some context and not a lot else, Gilles Peterson's Arc label LP/download/CD reissue of Scott's 'One For Me' sold 560 copies (physical or download) through Bandcamp. So even if as many again were purchased direct from shops (I suspect that's generous) then that's in region of 1,000 copies. And that's a reissue of a Strata East with all the kudos that label holds, especially amongst the younger customer base.

I tend to agree that a Scott LP set, and yes with original artwork (I know, I know) would appeal to a newer audience. It's not going to happen, at least not by Mosaic.

An interesting contrast will be the soon released Dorothy Ashby boxset, 6LPs, original artwork, sourced across 4 labels (I think) and LP only. Obviously New Land think there's a market out there still. And I'd say the Ashby/Scott crossover market is pretty strong, again amongst the younger demographic as highlighted by @Adam.  I will definitely be buying eb=ven if i no longer fit into "the younger demographic" 😃

Edit to amend error: the Bandcamp figure of 560 sales includes a CD version that is available through them. Thanks to Jazzbo for pointing this out

Edited May 3, 2023 by mjazzg

[jazzbo]

I wonder how many cds of that Scott sold--I have one.

Personally I want Mosaic to continue, and I have bought every set of theirs this century, and own most of the sets before that. I have learned so much from these sets, and enjoy the music. My tastes are broad, but fall in line with Mosaic's. What Mosaic may choose to not release that I have interest in I have been able to easily find in other versions, and many proposed sets in this thread I have little interest in. I'm lucky that I don't buy Scotch, wine, etc. and buying discs is my one big vice and I can afford many. I definitely understand the "old white guy" stance bemoaned here, and feel that Mosaic understands their place as well in the market. I feel that Mosaic is as happy about some of the "help" here as I have been about help I have received that I didn't ask for in my life.

I wish them the best and that to their own selves be true. And that those that want other types of sets can find the material out there and can get new reissues they would like.

[Brad]

1 hour ago, Dmitry said:

Jazz is evolving into the least popular genre.  I'm afraid that Mosaic will soon close. Almost nobody is buying cds, certainly not enough to keep this business afloat. How many copies of  Shirley Scott would Mosaic sell,  a couple hundred? Jessica Williams Mosaic, now THAT is the project I would stand behind, 100%. And IT wouldn't sell more than a few hundred boxes worldwide.

If almost nobody is buying CDs, why did the first run of the JATP sell out. If Mosaic were to do a Shirley Scott set, I’m sure it would do just fine.  Mosaic is doing fine; they are regularly issuing sets, maybe not as much as before, but they are still issuing them. 

6 hours ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

I don't get all this knocking old white men.  Are we so unworthy a target audience?  We probably spend more on music than teenage men (they lack money) or middle aged men (they have kids to support).  Teenage women are probably listening to Taylor Swift (the attraction still mystifies me) or some other bubblegum stuff, middle aged women are too busy taking their teenagers to Taylor Swift concerts, and older women - you never know they may be Jackie McLean fanatics...

I also don't understand the idea that Mosaic is supposed to save jazz.  What?  It doesn't work like that.

I don’t get it either but it seems to be a popular thing to do and not just here. 

2 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I wonder how many cds of that Scott sold--I have one.

Personally I want Mosaic to continue, and I have bought every set of theirs this century, and own most of the sets before that. I have learned so much from these sets, and enjoy the music. My tastes are broad, but fall in line with Mosaic's. What Mosaic may choose to not release that I have interest in I have been able to easily find in other versions, and many proposed sets in this thread I have little interest in. I'm lucky that I don't buy Scotch, wine, etc. and buying discs is my one big vice and I can afford many. I definitely understand the "old white guy" stance bemoaned here, and feel that Mosaic understands their place as well in the market. I feel that Mosaic is as happy about some of the "help" here as I have been about help I have received that I didn't ask for in my life.

I wish them the best and that to their own selves be true. And that those that want other types of sets can find the material out there and can get new reissues they would like.

👍

[mjazzg]

4 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

I wonder how many cds of that Scott sold--I have one.

My error, I missed that it was available as a CD through Bandcamp (and elsewhere). So that 560 figure is for all three formats LP, CD and download sold through BC. 

[scooter_phx]

Since a number of comments are concerned about Mosaic as a company because they sell CDs, I wonder if they'd be willing to change/add a format?  They've done it before.  Remember, the first few issues were vinyl only.  I'm sure they've considered (maybe only briefly) hi-res .flac files for their releases.  It would cost them less to release the sets.  Just a stray thought from an early morning mind...