Women and Mosaic Records

[sidewinder]

13 minutes ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Like Romualdo said ... Jutta Hipp has been taken care of in the DEFINITE way that in many details outdid what Mosaic would ever want to do (on account of their "house style"). And it WAS a labor of love. Note that on a personal level I DON'T like the guy who runs that label but I am familiar with his labor-of-love-approach to box sets like this that go where no others will tread - cf. his MOD Records box set too. ("MOD who??" - see, that's my point! )

Personally, I'd certainly buy a female instrumentalist box set that meets my tastes and fills a niche in my collection (not so sure about Shirley Scott anymore for that latter reason, then ...). Mary Lou Williams would also be a nice idea ... Or Barbara Carroll (but what their customer base weaned on HARD bop and nothing else say ) ... or indeed Marian McPartland ...

As for Mosaic being sexist ... nonsense ... They cannot go where the leader-date music (unfortunately) just isn't there. It's not their fault that (for example) the International Sweethearts of Rhythm's discography is slim. Or that of Mary Osborne ... or Dardanelle ... or Margie Hyams ... (naming just artists from uncharted territories of MY particular periods of interest ... there are others, of course, but in the case of Vivian Garry, for example, there would be the problem of immediate overlaps with another well-done reissue. i.e. Arv Garrison on Uptown, which would reduce sales prospects even among those out to go off the beaten tracks of the ususal suspects ...)
And its a pity but an understandable fact of commercial viability that even if there was enough material for a multi-CD box set of all-girl bands (which I wouldn't consider gimmicky but a valiant attempt at getting their music heard - again) they would consider their sales prospects much too unsure. And any wokeness demands on their reissue policy would certainly run them out of any activity for good ...

BTW, I am among those too who consider the Savory box set an important one. and I am sorry to hear that my hunch of Mosaic being "selective" in their B&W box set (which so far I have not yet picked up after having compared what I already have and what I truly need of what is in there) seems to be true. On checking their track listing I DID have a distinct impression that they curbed lots of tracks that leaned towards R&B. And I am not even familiar with the ENTIRE discography of the label ...
 

With regard to the B&W set - that is already a BIG set, so where do you stop. They were correct to focus on jazz content and curb the ‘more R&B’ IMO. A pragmatic judgement call - after all, it has to sell.

Agree with regard to the Jutta set and the point made about Mosaic ‘policy’ with this type of set.

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, sidewinder said:

With regard to the B&W set - that is already a BIG set, so where do you stop. They were correct to focus on jazz content and curb the ‘more R&B’ IMO. A pragmatic judgement call - after all, it has to sell.

Sure, I perfectly understand too. But that largely artificial dividing line between "pure" jazz and R&B of that period (which no doubt did NOT exist with a lot of the clientele - at least most of the BLACK clients - of B&W at the time) is unfortunate and a step back into a pigeonholing era that one might have thought of being overcome by now ... And considering the typical Mosaic clientele, the same "where do you stop" line might have been drawn with regard to Dixielandish-style jazz, isn't it? At any rate, that made that box set not quite that essential to me. On looking closer I found I have almost too much of the B&Ws by those artists that at first sight are of prime interest to me to warrant shelling out for the huge set. Whereas the uncharted corners of the B&W releases aren't there (and I am not thinking of T-Bone Walker, of course, of whom I already have all of his B&W items too). Preferences just differ, and no, you cannot please everyone all the time ... And I might reconsider after all ...

OT finished now ...

Edited May 1, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[sidewinder]

It’s all a case of pragmatic judgement calls in the end, I guess. Otherwise some of these sets would be like Commodore Vols 1 to 3 and beyond ! 😀

[Big Beat Steve]

3 hours ago, sidewinder said:

It’s all a case of pragmatic judgement calls in the end, I guess.

Which I guess also applies to Mosaic's (probable?) judgment about whether to do a "female instrumentalist" leader dates box set or not. Judgment with regard to sales potential. Probably (on their part) a case of "give us a client base more widely inclined to covering their blind spots and seeking out the overlooked instead of seeing their LONG-TERM favorites elevated to nobility by being given the Mosaic treatment and we might do such a set".

Edited May 1, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Larry Kart]

9 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

I think the Savory and Tristano sets are valuable/important issues.

For sure IMO

[Dub Modal]

Mosaic just ain't it anymore. This forum is probably the only internet corner where they're discussed on a regular basis in a serious way. I'd recommend looking elsewhere for box set needs/wants at this point. Griping about underrepresentation of female artists is just beating a dead horse. They're still a going concern but the entity was sold and the new ownership is going to be more bottom line focused. Their absence from any 21st century marketing efforts and platforms like bandcamp where they could offer digital download options just confirms their days are likely numbered. 

[mjazzg]

1 hour ago, Dub Modal said:

Mosaic just ain't it anymore. This forum is probably the only internet corner where they're discussed on a regular basis in a serious way. I'd recommend looking elsewhere for box set needs/wants at this point. Griping about underrepresentation of female artists is just beating a dead horse. They're still a going concern but the entity was sold and the new ownership is going to be more bottom line focused. Their absence from any 21st century marketing efforts and platforms like bandcamp where they could offer digital download options just confirms their days are likely numbered. 

+1

[Stonewall15]

What about Dorothy Donegan?

[Stompin at the Savoy]

20 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

I picked up the Savory Collection and Tristano and sold them at a loss pretty quickly. Bad sets, IMO.

Wait, what?  Count Basie, Lester Young, Herschel Evans, etc in 1938 is not good enough for you? 

[Brad]

6 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

Mosaic just ain't it anymore. This forum is probably the only internet corner where they're discussed on a regular basis in a serious way. I'd recommend looking elsewhere for box set needs/wants at this point. Griping about underrepresentation of female artists is just beating a dead horse. They're still a going concern but the entity was sold and the new ownership is going to be more bottom line focused. Their absence from any 21st century marketing efforts and platforms like bandcamp where they could offer digital download options just confirms their days are likely numbered. 

Did I miss where they were sold. I know Mosaic Images was sold to UMG but that was a different business.

That they license music from other companies may limit their ability to offer digital download options. 

[Dub Modal]

23 minutes ago, Brad said:

Did I miss where they were sold. I know Mosaic Images was sold to UMG but that was a different business.

That they license music from other companies may limit their ability to offer digital download options. 

I thought UME owned them outright after someone retired.

Looks like it's still Cuscuna & Wenzel running the show. Aside from that error on my part, it appears licensing and locating masters are their largest hurdles. For all we know, they have female sets in the pipeline but that can't get executed due to licensing.  

Edited May 1, 2023 by Dub Modal

[tranemonk]

Personally, I've wanted and been lobbying for a Betty Carter set for years. I would also LOVE a Geri Allen set... The stuff she did with Charlie Haden and Paul Motian was excellent. I recently came across an "Unissued Tracks" set from one of their Village Vanguard dates...

https://diwproducts.bandcamp.com/album/live-at-the-village-vanguard-unissued-tracks

[JSngry]

I don't think that what would block a Shirley Scott Mosaic set would be gender. 

[Ken Dryden]

8 hours ago, Stonewall15 said:

What about Dorothy Donegan?

While Dorothy Donegan is of interest to me, she recorded for a number of different labels and the focus would probably be a 4-5 CD set at most if Mosaic pursued it. I wonder how much she would sell, given the limited interest in reissuing her older LPs.

[Chuck Nessa]

Progress happens when "interested folks" stop whining and complaining and create something to make things better.

[Joe]

22 hours ago, Dub Modal said:

Mosaic just ain't it anymore. This forum is probably the only internet corner where they're discussed on a regular basis in a serious way. I'd recommend looking elsewhere for box set needs/wants at this point. Griping about underrepresentation of female artists is just beating a dead horse. They're still a going concern but the entity was sold and the new ownership is going to be more bottom line focused. Their absence from any 21st century marketing efforts and platforms like bandcamp where they could offer digital download options just confirms their days are likely numbered. 

I'm picking up what you're laying down... to an extent. I mean, look what New World Records did for Julius Hemphill. 

As much as I like the music on the Tristano set, I have to say the accompanying notes were just OK. I do have to acknowledge that the standard for me was set by Roswell Rudd's notes for the Herbie Nichols box — a high bar. Still, the booklet is one of the reasons to purchase a Mosaic box. 

[Teasing the Korean]

12 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

The sound quality on both was pretty disappointing, and not just the first disc for the Tristano set. When I look at Mosaic, I just see a bunch of old white guys making sets for other old white guys. We're all just circling the drain. It was foolish of me to start the thread. Dub Modal is right, Mosaic is completely exhausted as a concept and could have been so much better than what it ever was if it had ditched the conservative style twenty years ago. It's just a shame that they put out so many sets and didn't do more with it than stay in the narrow vein they've occupied since I was a kid. 

+1

9 hours ago, Chuck Nessa said:

Progress happens when "interested folks" stop whining and complaining and create something to make things better.

It also happens when "interested folks" make their voices heard through their buying power.  

[sidewinder]

12 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

The sound quality on both was pretty disappointing, and not just the first disc for the Tristano set. When I look at Mosaic, I just see a bunch of old white guys making sets for other old white guys. We're all just circling the drain. It was foolish of me to start the thread. Dub Modal is right, Mosaic is completely exhausted as a concept and could have been so much better than what it ever was if it had ditched the conservative style twenty years ago. It's just a shame that they put out so many sets and didn't do more with it than stay in the narrow vein they've occupied since I was a kid. 

I hope somebody with more creative vision does a big Shirley Scott set at some point. 

I haven’t heard the Tristano set yet so can’t comment with regard to the sound quality. From a personal perspective, I don’t agree with the rest of your post - but maybe that’s me. Without Mosaic putting out their sets, it would be a lesser world.

Edited May 2, 2023 by sidewinder

[T.D.]

9 minutes ago, sidewinder said:

I haven’t heard the Tristano set yet so can’t comment with regard to the sound quality. From a personal perspective, I don’t agree with the rest of your post - but maybe that’s me. Without Mosaic putting out their sets, it would be a lesser world.

Overall, the sound quality of the Tristano set is not pleasing. One full disc (#1) and portions of a couple of others have really poor SQ, but the rest is OK. The SQ of disc 1 is so low that I can't really enjoy the music and seldom listen to it, but I find the other discs enjoyable.

I did not expect great sound quality given long-dormant "Personal Recordings 1946 – 1970", and I'm sure Mosaic did as good a job as possible with the source material, but the low points were somewhat disappointing. I know a Tristano enthusiast on another forum (not Hoffman)  who disliked the set due to sound quality.

IMO the Tristano set was a "must issue" for Mosaic, that kind of thing was ( / is?) their raison d'être.

[Dan Gould]

Shit-stirring par excellence here ... first pronounced guilty of "sexism" on what is zero evidence and now its all about "white guys" servicing the needs and desires of other "white guys". Absolutely sick of this garbage.

Go set up your own goddamn company to put out what you think should be put out.  Go put your own goddamn money at stake.  And anyway, what do you care what artists get the Mosaic treatment when it comes from a sexist, racist, all-but-dead company?

[Larry Kart]

Dan pretty much speaks for me on this "issue." Why is this Mosaic's responsibility?

[Stompin at the Savoy]

13 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

The sound quality on both was pretty disappointing, and not just the first disc for the Tristano set. When I look at Mosaic, I just see a bunch of old white guys making sets for other old white guys. We're all just circling the drain. It was foolish of me to start the thread. Dub Modal is right, Mosaic is completely exhausted as a concept and could have been so much better than what it ever was if it had ditched the conservative style twenty years ago. It's just a shame that they put out so many sets and didn't do more with it than stay in the narrow vein they've occupied since I was a kid. 

I hope somebody with more creative vision does a big Shirley Scott set at some point. 

I dunno, but it seems like you are missing something about the basic nature of Mosaic.  This started as deep dives into big label vaults, restoring old discs, tapes, etc., reissuing important music that had become unavailable, and issuing iconic stuff that for one reason or another was never published.  If some label was publishing Baroque music for decades would you tell them stop with all the ancient stuff and publish the modern performances I want?  Part of the reason Mosaic is not handling more recent stuff is newer music is well engineered and digitally recorded - it doesn't require discovery and restoration, which is what this label is all about.

[Dub Modal]

I came down harsh on Mosaic but I want to make it clear that those are how I feel about their products and business model today. What they did and accomplished for jazz artists long forgotten and/or underrepresented is unparalleled and worthy of respect and honor. They set an impressively high bar for reissues that few have been able to match or exceed. FTR, I don't think they intentionally neglected female artists and it's unfair to pass judgment on that because we don't know what projects they had or have in the pipeline that can't get done due to reasons outside of their control. In light of the legacy they've left the world they absolutely deserve the benefit of the doubt. 

[JSngry]

Mary Lou Williams should have a set, but what would the licensing be? There's always that.

Same with Geri Allen - past the Blue Note stuff, what could they get?

Shirley Scott... I just don't think they have an appetite for ANYTHING that 'black blue collar". I'd be delighted to be proven wrong about that.

[Dmitry]

On 4/30/2023 at 10:18 AM, Teasing the Korean said:

I thought this thread was about Mosaic's female customer base.  

The widows of the Mosaic customers usually cash in on those sets as soon as possible.