Women and Mosaic Records

[Face of the Bass]

N/A

Edited May 9, 2023 by Face of the Bass
Hostile reaction...not interested in furthering the discussion

[Teasing the Korean]

I thought this thread was about Mosaic's female customer base.  

[Mark Stryker]

1 hour ago, Face of the Bass said:

Over on another thread, someone suggested that Mosaic put together a Shirley Scott set. I thought that was a good idea, which got me thinking about the representation of women in jazz. Then I looked through Mosaic's long discography, and realized that they have never given the "Mosaic treatment" to a female instrumentalist. Singers, yes. And there was one Mosaic Select that featured the pianist Toshiko Akiyoshi, but not a full-length Mosaic box set. It's never happened in the forty year history of the company.

Obviously, much of this is because women instrumentalists are severely underrepresented in jazz itself, which is a problem that is worthy of discussion in its own right. But, then, why not a Shirley Scott set? She did a number of albums for Impulse in the 60s that are now pretty hard to find. Why not Mary Lou Williams? Why not Bobbi Humphrey? Why not Jutta Hipp? Why not someone more contemporary, like Carla Bley or Geri Allen or one of the many female jazz artists of the 21st century? 

You want to make a bigger audience for classic jazz recordings? Enough with the repackaging of Blue Note albums for artists who have already been canonized a hundred times over. Take a risk and put together sets for overlooked artists who are not already part of the jazz canon. If marketed in the right way, I think they would sell. Does anyone disagree? 

The two best ideas here would be sets devoted to to Mary Lou Williams and Geri Allen -- both artists deserve the treatment and there might actually be a market for them..

A well-curated Mary Lou Williams set that cut across a variety of labels and bands in the first half of the century, tracing her development as an arranger and pianist, would be a true contribution. Nothing like this exists does it? I'd have to think more about how to frame it, but conceptually I love the idea. There's also probably sets to be done with a more defined parameters focused on other periods in her career, but I'd have to mull that too.

As for Geri, Allen, I think a tremendous set could be built around her initial records as a leader for Minor Music, JMT, and Blue Note -- almost all of which have been unavailable in physical form for 15 years or so and which as a group, tell a real story about about influential and eclectic contemporary pianist-composer coming of age on the left-wing, searching for a grand synthesis or outside/inside influences and slowing evolving back toward the mainstream -- Printmakers, Homegrown, Open on All Sides, Twylight, In the Year of the Dragon (with Haden/Motian), Nurturer, Maroons, Twenty-One. 

[T.D.]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I thought this thread was about Mosaic's female customer base.  

That would have been a thread of epic length! 🤣

[Joe]

Carla Bley — yes! — and Barbara Donald. Surely the former has some cache of unreleased material that would make for a fine box (I am speculating). The latter is a figure most deserving of wider recognition, and there are some leader dates that have fallen out of circulation. But I acknowledge a Donald set is a pipe dream at best.

They don't so Select anymore, which is a shame, as Vi Redd's recordings would have made a nice Select-sized package. 

And, hey, if they could go back to the Muse well... how about Cindy Blackman's recordings for that label?

[T.D.]

1 hour ago, Face of the Bass said:

Take a risk and put together sets for overlooked artists who are not already part of the jazz canon. If marketed in the right way, I think they would sell. Does anyone disagree? 

[Emphasis added]

At this point of Mosaic's life cycle, "take a risk" is not operative.

[Teasing the Korean]

2 minutes ago, Face of the Bass said:

What I wanted to say in my original post is that it is hard to look at Mosaic's discography and not conclude that the label is sexist. 

I think that maybe society was sexist for keeping women locked out of many facets of the music industry for decades and decades. It probably still is.  

[T.D.]

Melba Liston plays a big part in the Randy Weston Select.

She could be a candidate in the "classic jazz" mold. Though this discussion is merely fantasy.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, T.D. said:

Melba Liston plays a big part in the Randy Weston Select.

Was she involved in the Africa Uhuru album?

[T.D.]

1 minute ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Was she involved in the Africa Uhuru album?

She did the arrangements, but did not play.

[Teasing the Korean]

Just now, T.D. said:

She did the arrangements, but did not play.

That was my recollection.  Thanks!

[ghost of miles]

24 minutes ago, Mark Stryker said:

The two best ideas here would be sets devoted to to Mary Lou Williams and Geri Allen -- both artists deserve the treatment and there might actually be a market for them..

A well-curated Mary Lou Williams set that cut across a variety of labels and bands in the first half of the century, tracing her development as an arranger and pianist, would be a true contribution. Nothing like this exists does it? I'd have to think more about how to frame it, but conceptually I love the idea. There's also probably sets to be done with a more defined parameters focused on other periods in her career, but I'd have to mull that too.

As for Geri, Allen, I think a tremendous set could be built around her initial records as a leader for Minor Music, JMT, and Blue Note -- almost all of which have been unavailable in physical form for 15 years or so and which as a group, tell a real story about about influential and eclectic contemporary pianist-composer coming of age on the left-wing, searching for a grand synthesis or outside/inside influences and slowing evolving back toward the mainstream -- Printmakers, Homegrown, Open on All Sides, Twylight, In the Year of the Dragon (with Haden/Motian), Nurturer, Maroons, Twenty-One. 

I made similar suggestions in the “Helping Mosaic” thread, for a set devoted to Williams’ 1940s recordings and Allen’s 1980s/90s dates. In the case of the latter, I know just the writer to pen the liner notes! 😉 

Not an instrumentalist, but I also put in a plug for some kind of Betty Carter box—either one that gathers all of her pre-BetCar recordings, or one focusing on the BetCar material… is it owned by Universal now?

[Stonewall15]

How about Marian McPartland?

[gvopedz]

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I think that maybe society was sexist for keeping women locked out of many facets of the music industry for decades and decades. It probably still is.  

Regarding the sexist society and Melba Liston:     She suffered the perils of being the only woman in travelling big bands. "Rapes and everything. I've been going through that stuff for all my life. `Yeah, well, you know, it's a broad and she's by herself.' I'd just go to the doctor and tell him, and that was that. But the older I got, the less it happened. I don't know how old I was," she laughed, "but it stopped all together."

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/obituary-melba-liston-1089881.html

[Brad]

5 hours ago, T.D. said:

That would have been a thread of epic length! 🤣

I wonder how many female customers they have (and I exclude women buying for spouses or partners). 

5 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

Then they should cease operations. We don't need these boring sets covering music that have already been released many times. What I wanted to say in my original post is that it is hard to look at Mosaic's discography and not conclude that the label is sexist. 

Have you been paying attention about “music that have already been released several times”? In the past few years they have released The Savory Collection, Tristano, B & W and JATP. Yes, they have released a couple of sets of previously released music like Henderson and Hubbard but BN is not really in the cd release business anymore so I’m glad they’re doing it.

They have to carefully evaluate what will sell and what will not.  While it would be nice if they could make our personal favorites, financially that’s not necessarily possible.

Edited April 30, 2023 by Brad

[JSngry]

Big 🦾for both Mary Lou Williams & Geri Allen

A Shirley Scott set would also be warranted, definitely, but the impulse!  inventory alone would not make up a full set, and adding Cadet and (especially) Atlantic would mean music/records with overt R&B things going on, and I don't think that any Mosaic regime has ever had an appetite for that.

Carla Bley is bigger and better than Mosaic.

[Brad]

48 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Big 🦾for both Mary Lou Williams & Geri Allen

A Shirley Scott set would also be warranted, definitely, but the impulse!  inventory alone would not make up a full set, and adding Cadet and (especially) Atlantic would mean music/records with overt R&B things going on, and I don't think that any Mosaic regime has ever had an appetite for that.

Carla Bley is bigger and better than Mosaic.

They have a relationship with Craft and UMG so maybe they could do something with Prestige, Impulse and Cadet unless Craft decides it would rather hang onto the Prestiges. 

[JSngry]

Me? I'd love to see this type of stuff on Mosaic. But if Mosaic would have wanted it, they could have done it long before now, right?

[T.D.]

57 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Me? I'd love to see this type of stuff on Mosaic. But if Mosaic would have wanted it, they could have done it long before now, right?

Didn't Mosaic omit R&B-type material from the Black and White set "to keep it to a reasonable size"? That's the only explicit example that comes to mind.

I wouldn't rule it out entirely (the Mosaic Contemporary series did a bunch of "smooth jazz" / "adult contemporary"), but strongly doubt Mosaic would go for it.

[JSngry]

Specifically, "funk".

[JSngry]

43 minutes ago, Face of the Bass said:

It's a sausage fest for sure.

Hooray for that! 

[Brad]

1 hour ago, Face of the Bass said:

I picked up the Savory Collection and Tristano and sold them at a loss pretty quickly. Bad sets, IMO. Can't imagine either of those are selling impressively. Mosaic has in the past dipped into the deeper waters for overlooked artists, often justifiably. Just never once for a woman. That seems notable for a company that's been doing it for 40 years. 

I started the thread because I think this matters. Mosaic has almost served as an unofficial jazz canon, especially for the big sets. And it wasn't until I read the comment suggesting a Shirley Scott set that I realized they had never done anything like that in their entire history. And of course, the jazz industry as a whole is much to blame for this, as it historically has been a hypermasculine space closed off to women. Which is why Mosaic doing something about it would be a meaningful gesture. Their releases regularly get reviewed by NPR and other outlets that have a wider audience. 

And yes, most of their customers are men, and it seems that perhaps most if not all people who post on this board are men. It's a sausage fest for sure. But I would be very disappointed if it turned out that Mosaic's customers, or the people who post here, would be less likely to buy a set featuring a female instrumentalist. I really hope that's not the case. 

I can’t speak for the Tristano set as i didn’t purchase it but I personally liked the Savory set.  We all like different things so not everything will appeal to all.

I’m not in the music business or privy to Mosaic’s thinking, business model or backing but I think the days when Mosaic could take a risk — “bet the company” — are in the past.  While I would personally purchase a set from a woman instrumentalist, especially someone like Shirley Scott or Mary Lou Williams, they may feel that the reward is not the risk, but, of course, that’s all speculation. 

[Chuck Nessa]

4 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

I picked up the Savory Collection and Tristano and sold them at a loss pretty quickly. Bad sets, IMO. Can't imagine either of those are selling impressively. Mosaic has in the past dipped into the deeper waters for overlooked artists, often justifiably. Just never once for a woman. That seems notable for a company that's been doing it for 40 years. 

I

I think the Savory and Tristano sets are valuable/important issues.

[romualdo]

14 hours ago, Face of the Bass said:

But, then, why not a Shirley Scott set? She did a number of albums for Impulse in the 60s that are now pretty hard to find. Why not Mary Lou Williams? Why not Bobbi Humphrey? Why not Jutta Hipp? Why not someone more contemporary, like Carla Bley or Geri Allen or one of the many female jazz artists of the 21st century? 

Jutta has been "boxed" - Be! Jazz released a 6CD+DVD set including a massive casebound book covering her life plus her artwork a few years back

https://www.bear-family.com/hipp-jutta-the-life-and-art-of-jutta-hipp-6-cd-1-dvd-box.html

Be! Jazz label may be a bit suss but this set has been so well done - doesn't have the look of a cheap "knock off" - the whole production looks like a labour of love. The transfer quality is excellent, the book is stunning.

[Big Beat Steve]

Like Romualdo said ... Jutta Hipp has been taken care of in the DEFINITE way that in many details outdid what Mosaic would ever want to do (on account of their "house style"). And it WAS a labor of love. Note that on a personal level I DON'T like the guy who runs that label but I am familiar with his labor-of-love-approach to box sets like this that go where no others will tread - cf. his MOD Records box set too. ("MOD who??" - see, that's my point! )

Personally, I'd certainly buy a female instrumentalist box set that meets my tastes and fills a niche in my collection (not so sure about Shirley Scott anymore for that latter reason, then ...). Mary Lou Williams would also be a nice idea ... Or Barbara Carroll (but what would their customer base weaned on HARD bop and nothing else say ) ... or indeed Marian McPartland ...

As for Mosaic being sexist ... nonsense ... They cannot go where the leader-date music (unfortunately) just isn't there. It's not their fault that (for example) the International Sweethearts of Rhythm's discography is slim. Or that of Mary Osborne ... or Dardanelle ... or Margie Hyams ... (naming just artists from uncharted territories of MY particular periods of interest ... there are others, of course, but in the case of Vivian Garry, for example, there would be the problem of immediate overlaps with another well-done reissue, i.e. Arv Garrison on Uptown, which would reduce sales prospects even among those out to go off the beaten tracks of the ususal suspects ...)
And it's a pity but an understandable fact of commercial viability that even if there was enough material for a multi-CD box set of all-girl bands (which I wouldn't consider gimmicky but a valiant attempt at getting their music heard - again) they would consider their sales prospects much too unsure. And any wokeness demands on their reissue policy would certainly run them out of any activity for good ...

BTW, I am among those too who consider the Savory box set an important one. And I am sorry to hear that my hunch of Mosaic being "selective" in their B&W box set (which so far I have not yet picked up after having compared what I already have and what I truly need of what is in there) seems to be true. On checking their track listing I DID have a distinct impression that they curbed lots of tracks that leaned towards R&B. And I am not even familiar with the ENTIRE discography of the label ...
 

Edited May 1, 2023 by Big Beat Steve