Jazz Times -- no white writers admitted now? per Nate Chinen

[Teasing the Korean]

2 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

 

Acknowledging a reality is not the same as endorsing a practice.

And selective quoting is a form of misrepresentation.

You seem to be more interested in playing games than in engaging in an intelligent conversation. 

[clifford_thornton]

I mean, I've questioned whether I should be writing about certain aspects of the music as a white person from a white perspective (avatar being what it is -- an homage to a mysterious musician & political figure). Questioning and being self-critical is important. I suppose that is part of what "wokeness" is about in the ideal sense and very few people get that along with criticizing the status quo, you have to hold yourself to account and be prepared to be wrong. 

The Status Quo did write some good songs -- Pictures of Matchstick Men is a favorite. Couldn't get into their later hard rock stuff though.

[sonnymax]

You accuse me of twisting your words, so I responded exclusively with your own words. "Selective quoting"? Sure, I guess. Rather than quoting an entire post, I sometimes choose the words describing the idea that I am specifically responding to. I do it to clarify, not misrepresent. You say, "Acknowledging a reality is not the same as endorsing a practice." I respectfully disagree. Again, I'm not talking about demographics. I don't disagree with you on that point. However, I do disagree with the idea that addressing the lack of black voices is a conversation that is decades too late and of little use. If that's not what you were saying in your original post, then we have no quarrel that I am aware of.

Edited April 17, 2023 by sonnymax

[Teasing the Korean]

12 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

You accuse me of twisting your words, so I responded exclusively with your own words. "Selective quoting"? Sure, I guess. Rather than quoting an entire post, I sometimes choose the words describing the idea that I am specifically responding to. I do it to clarify, not misrepresent. You say, "Acknowledging a reality is not the same as endorsing a practice." I respectfully disagree. Again, I'm not talking about demographics. I don't disagree with you on that point. However, I do disagree with the idea that addressing the lack of black voices is a conversation that is decades too late and of little use. If that's not what you were saying in your original post, then we have no quarrel that I am aware of.

Thank you.  Yes, that is not what I was saying in my original post.  I was saying that this should have been addressed long ago - and perhaps it had been -  if indeed this is the case.  If African American writers are somehow being blocked from writing about jazz, that is one thing.  If African American writers in 2023 are interested in different topics, that is quite another.

[AllenLowe]

17 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Thank you.  Yes, that is not what I was saying in my original post.  I was saying that this should have been addressed long ago - and perhaps it had been -  if indeed this is the case.  If African American writers are somehow being blocked from writing about jazz, that is one thing.  If African American writers in 2023 are interested in different topics, that is quite another.

I think it's a cultural sea change - well, it's been going on for a long time - and black writers seem, for the most part, to have moved on. As for you statement about white audiences - I should have spoken up before, but it is an absolute truism, based on my experience of attending jazz events for about 55 years. This is not to say that there are not black audiences for jazz, but the music would have died a slow death years ago without the support of white folks.

Edited April 17, 2023 by AllenLowe

[HutchFan]

This thread has quickly devolved into nothing more than a Rorschach test for demonstrating each poster's racial politics.

Maybe, given the current political climate in the U.S., that's inevitable.  But this sort of discourse is not enlightening.  It's disheartening.  

People are talking to themselves (and their own preconceived notions), not one another.

That's my 2 cents.

 

[Rooster_Ties]

3 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

This thread has quickly devolved into nothing more than a Rorschach test for demonstrating each poster's racial politics.

Maybe, given the current political climate in the U.S., that's inevitable.  But this sort of discourse is not enlightening.  It's disheartening.  

People are talking to themselves (and their own preconceived notions), not one another.

+1

[scooter_phx]

I usually talk to myself.  I'm my own little friend.

[clifford_thornton]

I mostly talk to my cat.

[sonnymax]

26 minutes ago, scooter_phx said:

I usually talk to myself.  I'm my own little friend.

As a clinical psychologist with decades of experience, I can safely say that talking to yourself is fine, but you might have issues if you repeatedly ask, "what did you say"? 🤪

[JSngry]

47 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

...the music would have died a slow death years ago without the support of white folks.

I suppose there's an argument to be made that that's exactly what has been happening. 

[sonnymax]

4 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

I mostly talk to my cat.

So do I. I was heartbroken to learn that he had grown deaf with age, as if he could understand me before. 

[scooter_phx]

10 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

As a clinical psychologist with decades of experience, I can safely say that talking to yourself is fine, but you might have issues if you repeatedly ask, "what did you say"? 🤪

I only say that when listening to jazz.  Then, I have to repeat the track.  Oh, darn.

[jlhoots]

1 hour ago, Rooster_Ties said:

+1

+2

[clifford_thornton]

1 hour ago, sonnymax said:

So do I. I was heartbroken to learn that he had grown deaf with age, as if he could understand me before. 

Ah, dang. Well, they can understand you, and even if he can't hear he can recognize facial expressions and know where you're coming from, especially if you've had him a long time. Slow blinks also work if he can see okay.

[sonnymax]

4 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Ah, dang. Well, they can understand you, and even if he can't hear he can recognize facial expressions and know where you're coming from, especially if you've had him a long time. Slow blinks also work if he can see okay.

Max (Roach) is 17. I adopted him and his brother Sonny (Rollins) when they were a year old. I was joking about the lack of understanding. He knows me and I know him, which is fortunate because our efforts to learn ASL have been underwhelming. 😄

[AllenLowe]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

I suppose there's an argument to be made that that's exactly what has been happening. 

but for reasons that have nothing to do with race; this is an art music. And in the years since it faded from the pop charts even more so.

[JSngry]

Hey, look at the New Releases on the JT site. Tell me how many are there because there's a market for "that type of thing", tell me who that market largely is, and then tell me why everybody wouldn't have been better off if it would have been allowed to just die a natural death instead of being kept alive by artificial whitelife support for all these years.

The people who really have something to say will find a way to get it said, and the people who want to hear it will find a way to hear it. That goes for living humans as well as zombies. 

[Rabshakeh]

Are we not missing the point?

Jazz Times has fired all of its staff and is not proposing to take on new permanent staff, as far as I know.

Instead I thought that the model was going to be paid for advertorials plus near-unpaid fan submissions, probably on a level with the universally lauded Wayne Shorter obit.

I have no objection to an entirely African-American staffed jazz magazine, and in fact think it is a perfectly good idea, but Jazz Times' recent direction is not that.

This is all just marketing led trolling in the wake of the backlash, surely? 

[clifford_thornton]

Fascinating point. I don't know that aspect but if true, this is all part of a con.

[Rabshakeh]

18 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

Fascinating point. I don't know that aspect but if true, this is all part of a con.

There was a leaked industry release requesting submissions back when they initially fired people, which suggested that was the future direction. 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[clifford_thornton]

this just seems like fluff.

like, screams it, actually. So in that sense very little has changed or will change.

[Teasing the Korean]

3 hours ago, AllenLowe said:

I think it's a cultural sea change - well, it's been going on for a long time - and black writers seem, for the most part, to have moved on. As for you statement about white audiences - I should have spoken up before, but it is an absolute truism, based on my experience of attending jazz events for about 55 years. This is not to say that there are not black audiences for jazz, but the music would have died a slow death years ago without the support of white folks.

As I've said elsewhere, I think the biggest cultural splash made by jazz in the last 40 or so years - generally and more specifically with African American audiences - has occurred via the sampling of classic jazz records in rap/hip hop, R&B, and electronica.  Maybe this inspires some listeners to explore the records used for the samples, though I don't know if this helps contemporary jazz artists. 

[Rabshakeh]

I don't know. Jazz seems to be popular at the moment. I know lots of young people who like jazz. It isn't always quite my definition of jazz, but it is theirs. 

[JSngry]

38 minutes ago, clifford_thornton said:

this just seems like fluff.

like, screams it, actually. So in that sense very little has changed or will change.

Sounds like a press agent's dream!

But who will do the record reviews?

And what is Nate Chinen all Crow Jimmy about? 

56 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

There was a leaked industry release requesting submissions back when they initially fired people, which suggested that was the future direction. 

I'm really out of the industry loop (noose), so this is the first time I've seen this.

It sounds like a recipe for a 21st Century reboot of 1940s Down Beat. Oh boy!!!!!!! 

Can't wait to see Allen Lowe at home! Make it sexy for the kids, big guy!