Jazz Times -- no white writers admitted now? per Nate Chinen

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, sonnymax said:

White guys telling other white guys about (largely) black experience? Isn't that how much of history is written? And you're okay with that? Authentic voices tell a more truthful story. I'm not talking about the skin color of the author. I'm talking about writers who help me understand the cultural and historical value of the music I love. Of course, there are writers like the OP who do an excellent job. But the absence of black and other non-white voices is troubling and in need of change.

This.

Now here's hoping that the new JT finds good writers, finds an audience, and finds advertisers to sustain the business .

Easy enough, right? 

[sonnymax]

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

No, and that was my point.

Am I misreading you? This is the opinion you were expressing:

16 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Today's jazz audience is almost exclusively aging white males, so what's the point?

Your subsequent exchanges with Savoy over whether or not people of color comprise a significant portion of jazz listeners reinforces this ridiculous rationale for maintaining the status quo. In case you didn't understand my basic argument, here it is: You can't faithfully describe a cultural experience like jazz without authentic voices that speak from that culture. Other voices can add to the narrative, but they shouldn't be the predominate voice.

Edited April 16, 2023 by sonnymax

[Teasing the Korean]

18 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

Am I misreading you? This is the opinion you were expressing:

Your subsequent exchanges with Savoy over whether or not people of color comprise a significant portion of jazz listeners reinforces this ridiculous rationale for maintaining the status quo. In case you didn't understand my basic argument, here it is: You can't faithfully describe a cultural experience like jazz without authentic voices that speak from that culture. Other voices can add to the narrative, but they shouldn't be the predominate voice.

My anecdotal observations do not mean that I have any interest in "maintaining the status quo."  Respectfully, you seem to be making an assumption about me in this regard.  I am in no way suggesting that jazz writers should be white, nor am I presuming that jazz should necessarily be a hot topic for African American writers in the year 2023.  I was trying to point out that jazz has moved very, very, very far from its roots, and it seems like the editor of the jazz rag in question - which I do not read, incidentally - has just figured this out. Again, this article seems like it could have been written in 1963 or 1973.  

If I gave the impression that I think it is good or appropriate that most jazz writers are white, if indeed they are, that was not at all my intention, so my apologies.

Edited April 16, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[Dan Gould]

1 hour ago, mjzee said:

This just sounds like garden-variety racism to me: judging writers by the color of their skin rather than the content of their character.  MLK would be appalled.

I also don't know how this policy works out in real life.  Take, for example, Jim Alfredson's upcoming new release "Family Business" (Positone).  Must Jazz Times assign a white reviewer since Jim is white?  Or do they refuse to review the album because Jim is white?  And how does having one African-American (EJ Strickland) and one Latino (Diego Rivera) in the band affect the reviewing status?

One thing's for sure: if Jazz Times ultimately folds, Gregory Charles Royal will blame its demise on racism.

100% this.

The new owner apparently thinks white writers have nothing worthwhile or interesting to say about jazz, because they are white.

I oppose racism wherever it exists, so .... FUCK THAT FOREVER AND ALWAYS.

Now we have Crow Jim for writers. Next will be a re-evaluation of Getz and Brubeck and any other performer who isn't black. 

I was thinking about submitting a profile of Percy France, unbidden, to JT. I would love to see if they ask me my race or for a photograph, or just try to pick apart my social media to figure out my race.

I haven't read JazzTimes in forever, and it looks like that will continue til I die. 

[Ken Dryden]

Apply to write for JT and tell them you "identify as African-American" since that seems to be acceptable for so many other categories these days...

 

 

[JSngry]

LOL @ people who say they haven't read it forever and NOW will never read it again. Like that is relevant to the new owner's decisions. Like you would have come back... why? When? Like if they stopped sucking (it would take more than Mark Stryker to fix that)? What would that look like? You claim that the magazine is irrelevant to you but get butthurt about you now being perceived to be irrelevant to THEM? 

#ironydeficiency

 #bubblesburstingagain

[clifford_thornton]

luckily, being an ass or an idiot knows no racial, gender, religious, or other bounds. I'm not butthurt, butt... that Wayne Shorter obit was crap of the highest level. If the magazine just reprints tweets and wastes ink on calling people out rather than developing any interesting or valuable writing about music, they will continue to fail and that will be that.

 

[JSngry]

Yeah, Blackness is an experience, and definitely not a monolithic one. But it is not a skill set. Storytelling is a skill set, and writing is yet another skill set. And neither of the are the skill sets of business.

But back to being butthurt... I don't see anywhere that JT was going to stop using white writers or writing about white musicians. Reread whatever Larry posted of Chinen's email, and note that Larry had the good sense to ask if this was a loaded question - and it was indeed a question, nothing more. Not just a loaded one, but, it seems to be, one designed to trigger. Shades of Leonard Feather.

Nate Chinen never meant shit to me. Just sayin'. 

[Joe]

Sounds like a classic example of "an invitation to sit at the table can always be revoked, which is why you want to own the table — and the dining room, and the kitchen, and the groceries, etc." But we're still talking, by and large, about a game of musical chairs. The tune hasn't changed all that much, nor has the game. Maybe Royal will change the rules fundamentally, or stop playing games altogether. We'll have to wait and see.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I am "curious" to see which way he's going to take it. Or ways. Because there are options here. If it's truly "young", well good (and good luck). If it's "trying to get young people to appreciate their grandparents records", well..maybe Wynton is an investor looking for a write-off. 

But advertising? The last time I even looked in one, it was all about gear, tech, and a lot of vanity labels. Vanity labels, hey, they'll bite damn near anywhere. But gear and tech...you're right back into "the industry". Fools and their monies. Same old same old. 

[clifford_thornton]

To an earlier point, I hardly think the jazz crowd is as monolithic as it was even five years ago in NYC. Smaller markets, suburban markets, yeah those tend to not be very diverse. Lots of reasons for this.

 

also, I saw somewhere that JT was not going to do reviews anymore and really trim any "in depth" coverage that they used to have. The below is hardly promising:

Quote

 

32 SPECIAL: A REBUTTAL TO NATALIE WEINER  Steve Coleman on his side of the story

 

4 ‘ROUND-BOUT
Artists in their everyday lives off the bandstand

 

10 250 OR LESS
A cornucopia of Jazz stories from around the world in 250 words or less!

 

40 THE GREAT GENERATION

 

 

[Dan Gould]

11 hours ago, JSngry said:

LOL @ people who say they haven't read it forever and NOW will never read it again. Like that is relevant to the new owner's decisions.

Yeah HA HA HA, I must be butthurt over something that hasn't been a part of my life and won't be.

1. I have butthurt over naked racism.

2. A new owner might want to figure out how to get people like me to read/subscribe, but he seems to view the decline of the magazine as a consequence of it's white journalist "gate keepers'.

9 hours ago, JSngry said:

Yeah, Blackness is an experience, and definitely not a monolithic one. But it is not a skill set. Storytelling is a skill set, and writing is yet another skill set. And neither of the are the skill sets of business.

But businesses ARE BUILT around those skillsets.  And I am fairly confident that you do not believe that storytelling and writing are exclusive domains of different races.

But back to being butthurt... I don't see anywhere that JT was going to stop using white writers or writing about white musicians. Reread whatever Larry posted of Chinen's email, and note that Larry had the good sense to ask if this was a loaded question - and it was indeed a question, nothing more. Not just a loaded one, but, it seems to be, one designed to trigger. Shades of Leonard Feather.

 

This last bit is a pantload of garbage. You want to re-read? Fine:

"I want you all to imagine a world in which Black writers, as a matter of course and almost exclusively, provide the critique, opinion and coverage of White jazz artists and their music. Scary, huh?”

Only a racist sees race as the defining characteristic of a writer. His claim here is that black writers writing about white jazz artists would frighten ... who? Other whites, obviously.

Jazz fans want interesting writing about interesting musicians regardless of the race of the writer or the musician.

 

 

"This publication has lived in an insular bubble for decades — a magazine seemingly written for the consumption and from the perspective of white journalists (often themselves wannabe jazz musicians) who have had no interest in appealing to a general public. A wankfest of the highest order, largely undertaken and overtaken by white people at the expense of cultivating a legacy amongst jazz's primary heirs — past and future Black generations."

 

"Overtaken" - the language of appropriation, aggression, theft. And, we now know that Jazz's primary heirs are black people. 

RACISM. 

"These writers, aka the gatekeepers, historically worked on a tab until this Black man said get the fuck out"

RACISM AGAIN as he has identified the gatekeeping writers as "White".

Again, I get butthurt over racism wherever it exists.  

How sad that this garbage goes down at the same time that Mike Longo's widow has published his autobiography, The Rhythm of Unity: A Jazz Musician’s Lifelong Journey Beyond Black and White

https://www.amazon.com/Rhythm-Unity-Musicians-Lifelong-Journey-ebook/dp/B0BWZ52WCT/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2E6NQM70TW9KV&keywords=dorothy+longo+rhythm+of+unity&qid=1677604472&sprefix=dorothy+longo+rhythm+of+unity%2Caps%2C143&sr=8-1

[Ken Dryden]

It is hard to imagine any writer thinking of himself or herself as a “gatekeeper.” I write about artists whose music I enjoy and have no clue what the racial breakdown would be of artists I have reviewed, interviewed or made the subject of features. A lot of assignments have been entirely up to editors. I do have complete editorial control of my radio program.

This new JT owner reminds me of those who buys a restaurant then immediately make drastic changes to the menu. Soon they are gone.

BTW, wasn’t Crouch fired for habitual late copy?

 

Edited April 17, 2023 by Ken Dryden

[AllenLowe]

On 4/16/2023 at 9:52 AM, sonnymax said:

White guys telling other white guys about (largely) black experience? Isn't that how much of history is written? And you're okay with that? Authentic voices tell a more truthful story. I'm not talking about the skin color of the author. I'm talking about writers who help me understand the cultural and historical value of the music I love. Of course, there are writers like the OP who do an excellent job. But the absence of black and other non-white voices is troubling and in need of change.

I really take offense at this; I have been teaching, playing, and advocating for this music for about 50 years, at great personal sacrifice; I have recorded over 20 CDs, most of which are related to an examination of jazz's complex history; I have helped numerous musicians, gig-wise and financially; I have given up that career for a period of 20 years to help my son and basically had to, from a professional standpoint, start over again; I have written books on the subject - including all of American music - which are more comprehensive on the subject than that of virtually any other writer, white or black. At this point jazz and black vernacular music is so far from its roots that the music is an art form accessible to anyone, regardless of blood line or racial hierarchy (which strikes me as Nazi-like in its dependence on genetic continuity); some of the worst writing I have read of late on jazz or black culture has been from African American writers, one of whom, in a recent, book  informed us that white writers were hopeless insufficient from a racial standpoint and could not understand the music like black writers (and then proceeded to write articles that were completely devoid of any historical, social, or musical understanding). This whole thing reduces those of us who have spent so many years in support of this music to idiotic racial symbols. The truth is, without these white advocates, neither jazz history or the history of the blues would have been preserved in any comprehensive manner. I have just had enough of this bullshit. I support black writers, but I refuse to change my standards based on a false sense of historical reparations (which I also support).  I write a lot about this, btw, in my recent book Letter to Esperanza, about the stupidity of ideologically-based  historicism with people like Rhiannon Giddens and Daphne Brooks. And don't get me started on Nicholas Payton.

Edited April 17, 2023 by AllenLowe

[sonnymax]

19 hours ago, Dan Gould said:

... I oppose racism wherever it exists, so .... FUCK THAT FOREVER AND ALWAYS...

Sorry Dan, but your posts reek of white fragility. Identifying and calling out inequality based on race isn't racist, imo. Accusations of "reverse racism" typically underscore efforts to maintain white privilege. Efforts to include more black voices doesn't necessarily mean white voices go silent.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

26 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

I really take offense at this...

To say nothing of the fact that @sonnymax twisted my words and then didn't acknowledge my response.

Edited April 17, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[clifford_thornton]

15 minutes ago, AllenLowe said:

I really take offense at this; I have been teaching, playing, and advocating for this music for about 50 years, at great personal sacrifice; I have recorded over 20 CDs, most of which are related to an examination of jazz's complex history; I have helped numerous musicians, gig-wise and financially; I have given up that career for a period of 20 years to help my son and basically had to, from a professional standpoint, start over again; I have written books on the subject - including all of American music - which are more comprehensive on the subject than that of virtually any other writer, white or black. At this point jazz and black vernacular music is so far from its roots that the music is an art form accessible to anyone, regardless of blood line or racial hierarchy (which strikes me as Nazi-like in its dependence on genetic continuity); some of the worst writing I have read of late on jazz or black culture has been from African American writers, one of whom, in a recent, book  informed us that white writers were hopeless insufficient from a racial standpoint and could not understand the music like black writers (and then proceeded to write articles that were completely devoid of any historical, social, or musical understanding). This whole thing reduces those of us who have spent so many years in support of this music to idiotic racial symbols. The truth is, without these white advocates, neither jazz history or the history of the blues would have been preserved in any comprehensive manner. I have just had enough of this bullshit. I support black writers, but I refuse to change my standards based on a false sense of historical reparations (which I also support).  I write a lot about this, btw, in my recent book Letter to Esperanza, about the stupidity of ideologically-based  historicism with people like Rhiannon Giddens and Daphne Brooks. And don't get me started on Nicholas Payton.

Makes a hell of a lot of sense to me.

I do feel that true, systemic racism out-and-out requires power which people of color in this country do not have. But what the JT editor/purchaser exhibits is completely fucking out to lunch, regardless of how you spin it.

[Dan Gould]

2 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

Sorry Dan, but your posts reek of white fragility. Identifying and calling out inequality based on race isn't racist, imo. Accusations of "reverse racism" typically underscore efforts to maintain white privilege. Efforts to include more black voices doesn't necessarily mean white voices go silent.

 

Don't apologize to me, apologize for using a term like white fragility, one of the most ridiculous concepts to emerge in this god forsaken era where the truly fragile pay race hucksters to have dinner and be berated over their racism.  I am sure you've heard of that "service"?

And the racism "trainers" get richer and richer because "the work" "can never be done".

Why is it that the idea that a writer's skin color has nothing to do with the value of his prose is not universally accepted?

I didn't read Willard Jenkins' JT writings because he is black. I read him because he had something to say. 

And I think you should read, and re-read Allen's reply to you.

 

 

 

[sonnymax]

20 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

... If I gave the impression that I think it is good or appropriate that most jazz writers are white, if indeed they are, that was not at all my intention, so my apologies.

9 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

To say nothing of the fact that sonnymax twisted my words and then didn't acknowledge my response.

I don't think I twisted your words by quoting you.

On 4/15/2023 at 9:25 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

Today's jazz audience is almost exclusively aging white males, so what's the point? Great idea, in theory, but about 70 years too late...

This is the statement I wanted to address. Complacency is complicity.

11 minutes ago, Dan Gould said:

Don't apologize to me, apologize for using a term like white fragility, one of the most ridiculous concepts to emerge in this god forsaken era where the truly fragile pay race hucksters to have dinner and be berated over their racism.  I am sure you've heard of that "service"?

And the racism "trainers" get richer and richer because "the work" "can never be done".

Why is it that the idea that a writer's skin color has nothing to do with the value of his prose is not universally accepted?

I didn't read Willard Jenkins' JT writings because he is black. I read him because he had something to say. 

And I think you should read, and re-read Allen's reply to you.

Your response only reinforces my original assertion - white fragility.

[Teasing the Korean]

3 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

I don't think I twisted your words by quoting you.

Nowhere did I promote an interest in "maintaining the status quo," nor did I suggest that "a cultural experience like jazz" could be described "without authentic voices that speak from that culture."  I was simply talking about real or perceived demographic trends and not editorializing on them.  That was your incorrect assumption, which I attempted to politely address with you.

So I stand by my assertion that you have twisted my words.

[AllenLowe]

7 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

I don't think I twisted your words by quoting you.

This is the statement I wanted to address. Complacency is complicity.

Your response only reinforces my original assertion - white fragility.

Dan and I disagree about a lot of politics, but I know him well enough by now that when it comes to race and music he is only about the music, and doesn't get stuck in pseudo-woke poses. As for white fragility, you've got it backwards - to me the fragility is white folks who just bend to any opposite argument about race, who deny their own personal opinions because they are afraid of causing political offense. They are too fragile to risk dealing with heavy issues in which they might hold an unpopular opinion.

[scooter_phx]

IMHO, whomever owns Jazz Times will succeed because readers want to pay to read the writing.  If it's good, he will succeed.  If not, he will fail.  There's no black and white in that.  I do think his comments were frustration put into words.  I'm willing to wait and see what will happen with the next few issues.  He is right about one thing; Jazz Times has been on a downward spiral for some time.  I didn't renew my subscription because I couldn't read the font without a magnifying glass.  Time will tell and the clock's tickin'.

Edited April 17, 2023 by scooter_phx

[Larry Kart]

As long as I -- an 80-year-old white guy who's been writing and thinking about jazz for more than 65 years, can continue to post here -- I'm OK.

BTW Willard Jenkins once called me a racist -- I found this funny and don't even recall what I wrote that set him off, but this aroused the ire of Michael Fitzgerald, owner of the list where that dustup took place, and he told Jenkins to take his B.S. elsewhere. I got the impression from this that Jenkins had a history of such name-calling. 

[Dan Gould]

19 minutes ago, sonnymax said:

 

Your response only reinforces my original assertion - white fragility.

And your response reinforces my conclusion that this society is hopeless, not because of racism but because of Identity politics.

Instead of judging people by the content of their character, we judge by the color of their skin.  And we determine that white writers need not write about "black" topics.

And traditional liberalism is called "white fragility".

[sonnymax]

20 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Nowhere did I promote an interest in "maintaining the status quo," ...

On 4/15/2023 at 9:25 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

Today's jazz audience is almost exclusively aging white males, so what's the point? Great idea, in theory, but about 70 years too late...