Shorty Rogers' "Chances Are It Swings"

[Larry Kart]

Almost buried on my shelves, I found this 1958 big band album which is notable for several reasons. First, all the tunes are composed by one Richard Allen, who in addition to the title piece wrote  "There's No Place Like) Home for the Holidays", and Everybody Loves a Lover." Second,  every tune and chart is more or less organically "catchy," though not in a cheap way -- I'm reminded of some of the work that Neal Hefti did at this time for Epic. Third, all the solos are on the short side. with Richie Kamuca in especially fine form. Fourth, on the cover a blond model provocatively  pushes her tightly sheathed rear end out at Shorty as though she wanted him to insert his flugelhorn where the moon don't shine. Fifth, Joe Mondragon's well-recorded bass lines are a gas.  Sixth, Shorty uses Paul Horn''s flute in unison with Gene Estes' vibes as a section in  itself at times. Seventh, Mel Lewis' near omnipresent fills are so locked into Shorty's charts that one or both of them (i.e. Mel and Shorty) must have sat down beforehand and scoped that out. All in all, aside from my faint memory of one of Hefti's Epic albums of that time, it doesn't sound quite like anything else I've heard. Finally,  the trumpet section is something else: Don Fagerquist, Pete Candoli, Conte Candoli, Ollie Mitchell, Al Porcino, and Ray Triscari -- though only Shorty solos. 

[Teasing the Korean]

I picked up this album in the 1990s, back when Shorty Rogers albums were everywhere for a dollar or two.  I don't think I've spun it more than once.  #6 listed above (vibes and flute) is almost reason enough for me to want to spin this again.  That is one of my favorite instrument combinations.

I have a lot of Shorty Rogers, but the ones that I return to most frequently are the three that are collected on the RCA Short Stops compilation: SR & his Giants, Cool and Crazy, and The Wild One; Afro Cuban Influence, and The Fourth Dimension in Sound.

[Larry Kart]

"Shorty Rogers Plays Richard Rogers" -- another semi-forgotten RCA big band album from the '50s (1957). More solo space on this one than on "Chances Are" -- Herb Geller in exceptional form, along with Bill Perkins, Frank Rosolino, Rogers, Stan Levy (a quite energized accompanist),  Pepper Adams et al. (Adams' solo on "Thou Swell" opens in hair-raising fashion; probably scared the album's other baritonist, Jimmy Giuffre,  out of his wits.)

[Big Beat Steve]

Nice to see "Chances Are It Swings" is getting some thumbs up from a noted writer and reviewer. Period reviews were sort of lukewarm.

I haven't played it for years either but these recommendations will be reason enough for me to spin it later today.
Re- your "notable reasons", BTW, I take it that when you speak of the "short" solos you mean "concise solos to the point", i.e. not necessarily something to complain about? Elsewhere "short" solos on albums from that period have usually been faulted for "lack of space to stretch out" ....
And as for the cheesecake cover, of course this was a nice touch (it reminds me of some of those Jonah Jones LP covers on Capitol) but what struck me most when I picked up this album in the 90s was that the model uncannily resembled a girl from our circle of friends - as if it was her in a jump back in time.
Otherwise, I am a bit like TTK. I picked this up in the 90s too (though at a bit more than the proverbial $1) but I usually go to other Shorty Rogers albums first (the entire contents of the Short Stops twofer, the "Martians" albums including "Clicking With Clax" and the Richard Rodgers LP). So time to revisit this one now.

[Larry Kart]

By "short" I meant shorter than one might normally expect  - say 8 or 16 bars, not a full chorus. But that brevity seems to fit the context. 

[Teasing the Korean]

5 hours ago, Big Beat Steve said:

Otherwise, I am a bit like TTK. I picked this up in the 90s too (though at a bit more than the proverbial $1) but I usually go to other Shorty Rogers albums first (the entire contents of the Short Stops twofer, the "Martians" albums including "Clicking With Clax" and the Richard Rodgers LP). So time to revisit this one now.

Do you have either Afro Cuban Influence or The Fourth Dimension in Sound?  I really like those two.

[Big Beat Steve]

No, I don't (yet). I have most of his RCA and Atlantic output but only "Jazz Waltz" (which is interesting but an acquired taste IMO) from his post-RCA/Atlantic period. And I cannot recall having consciously seen "Afro Cuban Influence" in the usual outlets here (let alone at a "can't resist price"). And admittedly it's not been on my online high-priority list either.

But I'll take your endorsements for these two as recommendations for the future.

[Late]

"For Jazz Buffs"

[Teasing the Korean]

One Shorty Rogers album that I found a huge disappointment was An Invisible Orchard, a 1961 album that was not released until the 1990s.  It ostensibly has an outer space theme, which in and of itself was very promising, but I couldn't hear it in the music.

[Larry Kart]

8 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Do you have either Afro Cuban Influence or The Fourth Dimension in Sound?  I really like those two.

 

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

One Shorty Rogers album that I found a huge disappointment was An Invisible Orchard, a 1961 album that was not released until the 1990s.  It ostensibly has an outer space theme, which in and of itself was very promising, but I couldn't hear it in the music.

Nope on Afro Cuban Influence or The Fourth Dimension in Sound.

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

Nope on Afro Cuban Influence or The Fourth Dimension in Sound.

Don't think I listened to or bought any Rogers until many years later in a Lighthouse ALL-Stars framework IIRC. Didn't care for all the people he hooked up with then -- if one of them was the latter-day "hot" Bud Shank, yuck! -- but it was nice to hear Shorty on his horn again and in very good shape. No, or nor much, new writing from him sadly.

P.S. I know that Shank is no longer with us, which is sad to say,  but I call 'em as I see 'em.

[Big Beat Steve]

Listened to "Chances Are It Swings" last night and it clicked with me more than at earlier hearings (as far as I remember). It is more "conventional" (or should is say "straightforward"?) than many of his other 50s recordings IMO (more conventional than "Courts The Count" as well) but not in a bland way. It has its interesting twists and turns ("catchy" indeed). Larry Kart's comparison with Neal Hefti seems quite apt to me.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Teasing the Korean]

I will spin both Chances Are and Plays Richard Rodgers this weekend.  I will report back.

[Peter Friedman]

14 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Don't think I listened to or bought any Rogers until many years later in a Lighthouse ALL-Stars framework IIRC. Didn't care for all the people he hooked up with then -- if one of them was the latter-day "hot" Bud Shank, yuck! -- but it was nice to hear Shorty on his horn again and in very good shape. No, or nor much, new writing from him sadly.

P.S. I know that Shank is no longer with us, which is sad to say,  but I call 'em as I see 'em.

My opinion is quite different. Though I began listening to Shorty Rogers when his records were first released, It was Shorty's trumpet playing that was the least interesting part. Some of the musicians in his groups such as Bob Cooper, Hampton Hawes, Lou Levy, Pete Jolly, Richie Kamuca, Herb Geller Jimmy Giuffre and - yes Bud Shank I considered very good, and far more interesting than Shorty on trumpet.  It was Shorty Rogers writing that I enjoyed a lot.

[Big Beat Steve]

On 3/23/2023 at 2:14 PM, Teasing the Korean said:

Do you have either Afro Cuban Influence or The Fourth Dimension in Sound?  I really like those two.

You wouldn't believe ... I went to our #1 secondhand record store today (after an absence of 3 months), and lo and behold, among the recent arrivals (last month according to the price sticker) there was an original "Living Stereo" copy of "Afro Cuban Influence". I listened in on the shop's tryout turntable and headphones but it turned to have more pops and crackles than I would have liked it to have at the price of 20 Euros. And worse, at the beginning of side 2 there was a nasty crackling hiss for several turns that sounded as if someone had spun it briefly on an old Victrola ...
But amazingly, in another bin of "R" artist records there sat an original mono copy of the same LP at the same price. I did not have time to sample that one (visually it IS VG+) and I figure this music ought to be experienced preferably in stereo anyway. So I am still on the fence about it.
Browsing further, I saw there WAS a copy of "Fourth Dimension in Sound" too. (As if you had sent word to stock these items ... 😁) We'll see when I get there next time with enough time to listen in to that one too.

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

My opinion is quite different. Though I began listening to Shorty Rogers when his records were first released, It was Shorty's trumpet playing that was the least interesting part. Some of the musicians in his groups such as Bob Cooper, Hampton Hawes, Lou Levy, Pete Jolly, Richie Kamuca, Herb Geller Jimmy Giuffre and - yes Bud Shank I considered very good, and far more interesting than Shorty on trumpet.  It was Shorty Rogers writing that I enjoyed a lot.

I like Shorty's own playing well enough -- FWIW Igor Stravinsky did too -- and I liked Shank back then. But as you probably know, Shank in his later days tried to turn himself into a "hot" player, more or less in the vein of Phil Woods.  Yes, if Shank felt that way, he had every right, but I found the results  to be ugly and emotionally dubious,  i.e. I didn't believe a note of the new Shank.

[Teasing the Korean]

1 hour ago, Peter Friedman said:

 It was Shorty Rogers writing that I enjoyed a lot.

I run hot and cold on Shorty's writing.  There are times when I feel that his harmonies and voicings are too straightforward.  I can't really give you a good example right now, because the records I listen to (mentioned above) have more of the X factor I'm seeking.  I will be interested to play these two albums and see if I still agree with my original assessment.

[Larry Kart]

27 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I run hot and cold on Shorty's writing.  There are times when I feel that his harmonies and voicings are too straightforward.  I can't really give you a good example right now, because the records I listen to (mentioned above) have more of the X factor I'm seeking.  I will be interested to play these two albums and see if I still agree with my original assessment.

Yes, Shorty's writing for big band especially is rather straightforward,  in the vein of Herman's Second Herd, but I find it to be more less organic/coherent and reasonably varied within that bag. He does like to make perhaps excessive use of the virtuoso trumpet sections he had available to him at RCA, but I find some of that stuff to be fairly exciting, which was the point.

IIRC, at least one critic slammed "Shorty Courts the Count" for taking vintage Basie pieces and just upping the the pitch (say, by an octave) and volume of the trumpet parts -- again in the apparent aim of excitement -- but that critic felt that this distorted the coherence of the original pieces. I can see this both ways -- I register the distortion, which can border on hysteria, but feel. the excitement nonetheless. One could argue that NYC in 1938 and Los Angeles in 1958 were two different places of two different sensibilities. Also, FWIW, the Basie trumpets  of  '38 couldn't have played the charts that Shorty wrote for "Shorty Courts the Coun.t"

 

 

[Teasing the Korean]

11 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

Yes, Shorty's writing for big band especially is rather straightforward,  in the vein of Herman's Second Herd, but I find it to be more less organic/coherernt and reasonably varied within that bag. He does like to make perhaps excessive use of the virtuoso trumpet sections he had available to him at RCA, but I find some of that stuff to be fairly exciting, which was the point.

I even find his writing somewhat lacking on parts of Afro Cuban Influence, but the percussion section, which includes Carlos Vidal, Mike Pacheco, and Shelly Manne, makes up for it.

1 hour ago, Big Beat Steve said:

But amazingly, in another bin of "R" artist records there sat an original mono copy of the same LP at the same price. I did not have time to sample that one (visually it IS VG+) and I figure this music ought to be experienced preferably in stereo anyway. So I am still on the fence about it.

I've had both and they both sound good.  IIRC, the mono has less reverb than the stereo, which generally is a good thing.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[Big Beat Steve]

28 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

IIRC, at least one critic slammed "Shorty Courts the Count" for taking vintage Basie pieces and just upping the the pitch (say, by an octave) and volume of the trumpet parts -- again in the apparent aim of excitement -- but that critic felt that this distorted the coherence of the original pieces. I can see this both ways -- I register the distortion, which can border on hysteria, but feel the excitement nonetheless. One could argue that NYC in 1938 and Los Angeles in 1958 were two different places of two different sensibilities. Also, FWIW, the Basie trumpets  of  '38 couldn't have played the charts that Shorty wrote for "Shorty Courts the Count"

Interesting to read that my "amateur" feelings of way back were not that different from what you sum up here from you pro stance. When I heard the first Roulette-era Count Basie big band recordings I felt the same kind of difference in volume and "excitement" (or should I say "bite"?) when compared to the recordings of the "Old Testament" band I was much more familiar with back then. But in line with what had happened in big band jazz in the 50s I just took this as signs of the times and quickly came to appreciate both for what they were.
OTOH I never compared the "Courts The Count" sessions directly with the Basie charts but just took them as a tribute to Basie and a new reinterpretation of the Basie originals.

24 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I've had both and they both sound good.  IIRC, the mono has less reverb than the stereo, which generally is a good thing.

Thanks - I'll remember this next time I stop by the shop.

[Teasing the Korean]

42 minutes ago, Larry Kart said:

IIRC, at least one critic slammed "Shorty Courts the Count" for taking vintage Basie pieces and just upping the the pitch (say, by an octave) and volume of the trumpet parts -- again in the apparent aim of excitement -- but that critic felt that this distorted the coherence of the original pieces. I can see this both ways -- I register the distortion, which can border on hysteria, but feel. the excitement nonetheless. One could argue that NYC in 1938 and Los Angeles in 1958 were two different places of two different sensibilities. Also, FWIW, the Basie trumpets  of  '38 couldn't have played the charts that Shorty wrote for "Shorty Courts the Coun.t"

This album was included as part of the 2-LP Short Stops set, but left off of the CD version, presumably for a combination of space/time limits and its standalone release. I have both the CD and LP version, but I never played the LP.  I am waiting to experience Shorty Courts the Count with the Jim Flora cover art.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[Big Beat Steve]

10 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

... but I never played the LP.  I am waiting to experience Shorty Courts the Count with the Jim Flora cover art.

Interesting (and understandable) idea ... Next time I spin my original HMV LP of "Courts The Count" (with exceedingly "pedestrian" cover artwork, alas) instead of the "Short Stops" twofer I will pull out my Jim Flora book as well.

Edited March 24, 2023 by Big Beat Steve

[Stompin at the Savoy]

Checking it out.  Nice flugelhorn you've got there.

 

Edited March 24, 2023 by Stompin at the Savoy

[Teasing the Korean]

17 minutes ago, Stompin at the Savoy said:

Checking it out.  Nice flugelhorn you've got there.

That was generally nice, although certain aspects reminded me of why I haven't spun this album more.  Still, I will play the whole thing.

[Stompin at the Savoy]

29 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

That was generally nice, although certain aspects reminded me of why I haven't spun this album more.  Still, I will play the whole thing.

Sometimes his stuff can seem arranged and mannered.  But there are some nice, in the pocket, swinging things in there so I like it.