Kenny Dorham: 2 Horns/2 Rhythm

[Late]

What do you all think of this Dorham record? Sometimes I love it, and other times it feels like it's missing something. Also, sometimes Ernie Henry sounds to me like a more diatonic Ornette Coleman—or, put another way, an Ornette Coleman more invested in wanting to play changes.

Opinions on the record welcome. I think Max Roach had words (positive) about this record. G.T. Hogan sounds a lot like Blakey on this record.

[Larry Kart]

Bought it when it came out, and it's always been a favorite. One of Ernie Henry's best, and he and KD are a great pair. The unlikely choice of "Is It True What They Say About Dixie"? is a great track; it really pops. Bassists Wilbur Ware and the fairly obscure Eddie Matthias have a lot to do with the success of the album. Good characterization by you of Henry's approach. IIRC , Ernie aroused Martin Williams' ire with his playing on Monk's "Brilliant Corners," though Martin would soon become a strong supporter of Ornette. Wouldn't necessarily blame Martin for that anomaly in taste, though. Henry was strong medicine -- perhaps the hard bop equivalent to Johnny Dodds, he had a kick like a mule.

 

[JSngry]

That's a damn good record.

[Late]

...and the cover art. Is that a paint can covered with plastic wrap? An ominous totem from Lord of The Rings? Or maybe someone stepped on Kenny's bell?

[mikeweil]

12 minutes ago, Late said:

...and the cover art. Is that a paint can covered with plastic wrap? An ominous totem from Lord of The Rings? Or maybe someone stepped on Kenny's bell?

I was wondering about that, too.

This was recorded on December 2, 1957. On December 20 & 23, Dorham and Max Roach recorded the latter's first pianoless album for EmArcy. Must have been their common brainchild.

The December 20 tracks were first issued in Japan on this album, and included in the Max Roach Plus Four Mosaic box set.

Edited March 14, 2023 by mikeweil

[T.D.]

1 hour ago, Late said:

...and the cover art. Is that a paint can covered with plastic wrap? An ominous totem from Lord of The Rings? Or maybe someone stepped on Kenny's bell?

I always found the cover weird, but iirc the liner notes clearly explain that it's a Bunsen burner photographed through a 25-pound block of ice, "at the moment that the flame of a Bunsen burner on the far side burned through it, with the patterns and color being created by the flame" [I looked it up].

Brought back memories of school chemistry labs.

You guys wondered about the cover but didn't check the liner notes?

I'm an Ernie Henry fan, but like the OP go back and forth on the album...sometimes I enjoy it, other times it feels monotonous and wears on me (perhaps due to absence of piano).

Edited March 14, 2023 by T.D.

[Rooster_Ties]

1 hour ago, T.D. said:

I always found the cover weird…

I’ve always thought it was a really weird cover too — so much so, in fact, that I’ve always wondered if (half assumed that) it was some, cheap Pickwick-type label of some sort (or some weird reissue of something else entirely). I’m only now seeing the “Riverside” in the upper right corner.

But, confession, I’ve also never heard the album, and I only know the cover from seeing it online (on Dusty Groove, mostly — just a glance, really).

Another confession, I don’t have a ton of KD — about 3-4 leader-dates at most, mostly on Blue Note, and one OJC — plus a good smattering of his sideman work.

Edited March 14, 2023 by Rooster_Ties

[Joe]

Probably the most satisfying of KD's Riverside dates, IMO. JAZZ CONTRASTS and BLUE SPRING have never done much for me for some reason. (I need to revisit, though.) As the cover suggests, it offers a nice balance of cool and hot. It's also an important step in KD's journey to the (less overtly boppish) player he'd become in the next decade.

[Dub Modal]

That live at Cafe Bohemia CD with both sets is probably my favorite BN date and maybe of all the KD I have. Studio wise I like Matador. His great sideman dates are plentiful. 

On the other hand, I don't have much Ernie Henry. Sideman on Monk's Brilliant Corners and on that BN Moody Modernists album. Only 12 songs in total between those two. 

[Late]

2 hours ago, T.D. said:

You guys wondered about the cover but didn't check the liner notes?

Aha! I only have the album in my iTunes. But I located and ordered a physical copy just yesterday—so now I can finally read about this mysterious Bunsen. 😉

[Larry Kart]

53 minutes ago, Joe said:

Probably the most satisfying of KD's Riverside dates, IMO. JAZZ CONTRASTS and BLUE SPRING have never done much for me for some reason. (I need to revisit, though.) As the cover suggests, it offers a nice balance of cool and hot. It's also an important step in KD's journey to the (less overtly boppish) player he'd become in the next decade.

Despite the promising personnel, "Jazz Contrasts" never came off IMO; "Blue Spring" has good KD and Cannonball, but seems rather flacid overall.

[Late]

For some reason, this album often makes me think of/want to play Lee Konitz's Motion. Also interesting (well, to me) that this record pre-dates Ornette's piano-less recordings (and post-dates Mulligan's).

[T.D.]

If you have better vision than I, the cover art is explained in the latter part of the second paragraph here (photo courtesy discogs):

 

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, Joe said:

Probably the most satisfying of KD's Riverside dates, IMO. JAZZ CONTRASTS and BLUE SPRING have never done much for me for some reason. (I need to revisit, though.) As the cover suggests, it offers a nice balance of cool and hot. It's also an important step in KD's journey to the (less overtly boppish) player he'd become in the next decade.

The singing record continues to fascinate me for purely studying reasons. 

 

 

[Larry Kart]

I have that one. In what respect are you studying it?

[Brad]

It’s been years since I’ve listened to it but it didn’t grab me like KD’s Blue Notes. 

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Larry Kart said:

I have that one. In what respect are you studying it?

The accents and the vowels/consonants. For a non-singer such as myself, it's both illuminative and inspirational. Like, ok, I can't sing, but this guy can't really sing either. And yet he makes very musical music with his singing. 

That, and Cedar Walton and Sam Jones 

But mostly for the singing, the colorations. 

 

[Late]

 

23 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

The unlikely choice of "Is It True What They Say About Dixie"? is a great track; it really pops.

That's one of the album's best tracks. 👌

23 hours ago, Larry Kart said:

Bassists Wilbur Ware and the fairly obscure Eddie Matthias have a lot to do with the success of the album. 

Eddie Matthias on Discogs. Outside of work with Dorham, he recorded with Roland Kirk and Rusty Bryant, but not too many others. I wondered at first if "Eddie Matthias" might for some reason be a nom de plume for Eddie de Haas, but I guess not.

On 3/13/2023 at 7:53 PM, Larry Kart said:

Bought it when it came out...

1958?

Edited March 15, 2023 by Late
tpyo

[Larry Kart]

yes, 1958. I was in high school then.

41 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The accents and the vowels/consonants. For a non-singer such as myself, it's both illuminative and inspirational. Like, ok, I can't sing, but this guy can't really sing either. And yet he makes very musical music with his singing. 

That, and Cedar Walton and Sam Jones 

But mostly for the singing, the colorations. 

 

Gotcha. I'll try to listen to it from the perspective. 

[T.D.]

52 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The accents and the vowels/consonants. For a non-singer such as myself, it's both illuminative and inspirational. Like, ok, I can't sing, but this guy can't really sing either. And yet he makes very musical music with his singing. 

That, and Cedar Walton and Sam Jones 

But mostly for the singing, the colorations. 

 

To date I avoided this album because I figured I'd hate it, but I agree it's interesting, and the sidemen are impressive.

I've been listening to Phil Ranelin lately, another instrumentalist who can't sing but somehow pulls it off. Ranelin doesn't do much more than speak and has very limited range, but his voice is smoother and more...mellifluous? than KD's.

OTOH, KD has more range and does a lot of really interesting technical things, some of which I dig and others about which I'm more...equivocal. Going to have to explore the recording, thanks for the tip.

[Gheorghe]

I have never heard about this album. Is this a pianoless quartet, I mean KD, Ernie Henry , b and dr ? 
I heard a lot of Ernie Henry from classic bop sessions with Tadd Dameron and Fats Navarro, and with the Dizzy Gillespie Big Band, and the later one as "Brilliant Corners" but not very much. 

Kenny Dorham I love very much. I don´t have many albums, but sure something with Bird or other bebop boys, the session with Monk, and some BN from the mid 50´s and 60´s. 

He has a very interesting sound, something "bitter sweet" , and a wonderful composer. That´s what I have studied about him and took with me. Ernie Henry is fine but I think for alto saxophone I studied more Jackie McLean. 

[mikeweil]

BTW - these sessions with Dorham were Ernie Henry's last before he died of a heroin overdose on December 29, 1957.

[Late]

2 hours ago, mikeweil said:

...these sessions with Dorham were Ernie Henry's last before he died of a heroin overdose on December 29, 1957.

At the age of 31 I believe. 😔 Not too many trumpet players, it seems, directly list Dorham as an influence, while many are fans. I met Tim Hagans once, and he put Kenny on top of his list ("tied" with Freddie Hubbard, he said). I believe Don Sickler is a big fan as well. And I think Kenny, as opposed to Miles, was who Chet Baker listed as an influence.

Tangential question—what would you list as the least well-known Dorham record, either leader or sideman? Cecil Payne's Zodiac perhaps? I need to listen to that one again.

[Larry Kart]

The "Showboat" album? The Jazz Prophet two-fer.

[Dub Modal]

1 hour ago, Late said:

At the age of 31 I believe. 😔 Not too many trumpet players, it seems, directly list Dorham as an influence, while many are fans. I met Tim Hagans once, and he put Kenny on top of his list ("tied" with Freddie Hubbard, he said). I believe Don Sickler is a big fan as well. And I think Kenny, as opposed to Miles, was who Chet Baker listed as an influence.

Tangential question—what would you list as the least well-known Dorham record, either leader or sideman? Cecil Payne's Zodiac perhaps? I need to listen to that one again.

Zodiac had that Pure Pleasure reissue that may have increased its exposure. 

Dorham was a sideman on Clifford Jordan's Mosaic LP on Milestone that may qualify as obscure these days. Likewise his tracks on Cedar! which was released on Prestige. Since it combines trio, quartet and quintet combos it may be a less well known Dorham date.