What makes a jazz singer?

[Teasing the Korean]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Only one universe, yes. But how many universes are there in an/the omniverse? 

You know that every time a jazz soloist chooses a note to play, 11 new universes are created for each of the other 11 notes (s)he may have played instead? And this process repeats itself, forming new universes exponentially.  

51 minutes ago, danasgoodstuff said:

...I found her good songs are where you fine 'em attitude a refreshing change from the GAS-bag fetish.

If I see a new jazz album consisting entirely of standards, I'm very skeptical.

If I see a new jazz album consisting of covers of, say, Radiohead or Taylor Swift, I'm equally skeptical.

 

[JSngry]

Gimme a second, I came across a Roscoe Mitchell quote this morning that opens all that all up! 

13 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

 

If I see a new jazz album consisting of covers of, say, Radiohead or Taylor Swift, I'm equally skeptical.

 

How about a non-jazz record with bits of Wayne Shorter? 

[Rooster_Ties]

13 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

If I see a new jazz album consisting of covers of, say, Radiohead or Taylor Swift, I'm equally skeptical.

Radiohead covers at least hold the possibility of being an opportunity for something interesting, imho (Björk covers too) — but I’m always a skeptical regardless.

[JSngry]

There's also that whole Robert Glasper thing going on. Kinda ducked out on that, but it's still going on. 

[HutchFan]

I don't think phrasing or improvisation -- in and of themselves -- are as important as rhythm.

If you're really wanting to boil things down to their essences (which probably isn't possible!), I think rhythm is Armstrong's greatest contribution to 20th century music -- vocal and otherwise. It's also what puts Armstrong's fingerprints all over SO MUCH music that came after him. And this influence extends WAY beyond jazz. 

There's pre-Pops rhythm and there's post-Pops rhythm.  So, if you're talking about jazz singing, I think rhythm has got to be at the heart of it. 

OTOH, rhythm is central to many other types of African-American (that is, North, Central, and South American) musical forms.  The common thread is the African diaspora, those rhythms from Africa manifesting themselves & blending with other forms in different places in different ways. I think that's one thing that makes "disentangling" Armstrong & Holiday from Celia Cruz & Elis Regina or Al Green & James Brown extremely difficult, if not impossible.

Besides, the particular contributions of each individual artist are always more interesting than the taxomical generalities anyway! 

 

Not sure if this advances the conversation or not -- but I had some fun thinking about it and writing down some thoughts. 

Edited August 2, 2023 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

21 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I don't think phrasing or improvisation -- in and of themselves -- are as important as rhythm.

If you're really wanting to boil things down to their essences (which probably isn't possible!), I think rhythm is Armstrong's greatest contribution to 20th century music -- vocal and otherwise. It's also what puts Armstrong's fingerprints all over SO MUCH music that came after him. And this influence extends WAY beyond jazz. 

There's pre-Pops rhythm and there's post-Pops rhythm.  So, if you're talking about jazz singing, I think rhythm has got to be at the heart of it. 

OTOH, rhythm is central to many other types of African-American (that is, North, Central, and South American) musical forms.  The common thread is the African diaspora, those rhythms from Africa manifesting themselves & blending with other forms in different places in different ways. I think that's one thing that makes "disentangling" Armstrong & Holiday from Celia Cruz & Elis Regina or Al Green & James Brown extremely difficult, if not impossible.

Besides, the particular contributions of each individual artist are always more interesting than the taxomical generalities anyway! 

 

Not sure if this advances the conversation or not -- but I had some fun thinking about it and writing down some thoughts. 

Thus why Linda Ronstadt never will be a "jazz singer". Her rhythm is "stuff". 

Which is ok,it just is what it is 

[HutchFan]

4 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Thus why Linda Ronstadt never will be a "jazz singer". Her rhythm is "stuff". 

Which is ok,it just is what it is 

Yup. 

Ronstadt's got a voice that works very well (imo) in other contexts. Country-rock and pop and such.

But for jazz? No.

 

The opposite might be said about Willie Nelson.  Even when he's singing country music, his rhythmic flexibility and phrasing makes it sound like jazz.  That's why his albums of GAS standards are terrific -- unlike Ronstadt's, Rod Stewart's, and so many others.

 

[JSngry]

You know the honky-tonk  record he made with Ray Price, right? The best stuff on there might as well be jazz, I mean, it's just a trip next door, and the neighbors don't lock their doors . 

[HutchFan]

Yes sir. LOVE that record!

 

[JSngry]

3 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

You know that every time a jazz soloist chooses a note to play, 11 new universes are created for each of the other 11 notes (s)he may have played instead? And this process repeats itself, forming new universes exponentially. 

 

2 hours ago, JSngry said:

Gimme a second, I came across a Roscoe Mitchell quote this morning that opens all that all up! 

 

Ok, here it is. From an interview with John McCowen, found in the recently released bookmagmagbook Sound American No. 29::

JMC: Would you say your religion is music?

RM:I don't know. I mean, that's kind of a narrow statement.

JMC: Yeah. Religion can be a narrow thing.

RM: Well, yeah. Well, people use it for their own purposes for sure. Even beyond this particular level of existence.To me, this is probably just one layer of what some of the possibilities are.

JMC: What are some of those possibilities?

RM: I don't know them on this plane! [laughter] It might get revealed on the next plane, ya' know? I think you have to work hard on this one to even get to the next one!

JMC: But you said you like to think about those possibilities. Are you just sitting there going "Well, I don't know what this is."?

RM: Well I thiink you can.There are messages that you get. Like, if you think about the universe...there's a strong message out there. There are many things.Most of them are totally different! [laughter] So there's many things, but there's a message in that.Certainly this planet has many, many possibilities you don't even know! Not to mention things that are out there in the universe! So, I enjoy being in that realm, and I don't mind working hard to get to the next level of it.

JMC: Do you feel like you've ever gotten hints of a message in a performance that might suggest another realm?

RM: Abso;utely! There are nights when you can't do any wrong. [laughter] I mean, you wake up from that right away when it's over. And you go back and it might not be there.But at least you know internally that it does exist.

JMC: And that keeps you going?

RMM: Absolutely.

 

 

[danasgoodstuff]

5 hours ago, JSngry said:

Esperanza Spaulding, sorta-kinda, on all points?

Kinda-sorta kinda-sorta?

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

If I see a new jazz album consisting entirely of standards, I'm very skeptical.

If I see a new jazz album consisting of covers of, say, Radiohead or Taylor Swift, I'm equally skeptical.

Either of those can be shtick of the worst sort, or not.  Depends.  

3 hours ago, JSngry said:

You know the honky-tonk  record he made with Ray Price, right? The best stuff on there might as well be jazz, I mean, it's just a trip next door, and the neighbors don't lock their doors . 

 

If you mean this one, then yes I totally agree - it's a thing of wonder that's been in regular rotation round here for 40 years or so.  The others they did together are nice too.

[JSngry]

That's the one. 

[Teasing the Korean]

6 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Either of those can be shtick of the worst sort, or not.  Depends.  

Correct, but considering all the schtick I've encountered, I no longer have the patience to find out.

[Rabshakeh]

6 hours ago, danasgoodstuff said:

Kinda-sorta kinda-sorta?

Either of those can be shtick of the worst sort, or not.  Depends.  

If you mean this one, then yes I totally agree - it's a thing of wonder that's been in regular rotation round here for 40 years or so.  The others they did together are nice too.

Are there other Nelson honky tonk records? I like this a lot more than I normally like Nelson (whose voice I seem to otherwise be a bit allergic to).

[JSngry]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Are there other Nelson honky tonk records? I like this a lot more than I normally like Nelson (whose voice I seem to otherwise be a bit allergic to).

Are you into Ray Price at all? 

[Rabshakeh]

6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Are you into Ray Price at all? 

I don't really know Ray Price. Which way do I go?

[HutchFan]

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Are there other Nelson honky tonk records? I like this a lot more than I normally like Nelson (whose voice I seem to otherwise be a bit allergic to).

Not sure that I'd describe all of this stuff as honky-tonk -- but here's a few of my favorite Willie Nelson records:

This compilation skims the cream off the top of his early years with RCA -- before he left Nashville and moved back to Texas.  His mastery as a songwriter is immediately apparent.  His singing is still evolving.

 

The beginning of Willie as we now know him, after he quit the whole Nashville "thing" and started doing something very different in Austin.  Produced by Arif Mardin & Jerry Wexler for Atlantic.

 

A masterpiece.

 

 

For Ray Price, I'd recommend:

The title cut, "Night Life," was written by Willie.  It may as well be a jazz tune.

 

[JSngry]

Two concept albums from the 1960s - Night Life & The Other Woman. 

Ray Price. 

[Rabshakeh]

8 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Not sure that I'd describe all of this stuff as honky-tonk -- but here's a few of my favorite Willie Nelson records:

This compilation skims the cream off the top of his early years with RCA -- before he left Nashville and moved back to Texas.  His mastery as a songwriter is immediately apparent.  His singing is still evolving.

 

The beginning of Willie as we now know him, after he quit the whole Nashville "thing" and started doing something very different in Austin.  Produced by Arif Mardin & Jerry Wexler for Atlantic.

 

A masterpiece.

 

 

For Ray Price, I'd recommend:

The title cut, "Night Life," was written by Willie.  It may as well be a jazz tune.

 

 

8 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Two concept albums from the 1960s - Night Life & The Other Woman. 

Ray Price. 

Okay. I have listening to do.

Those Willie Nelson records are the ones I don't really like. I just don't like his voice. It is a personal thing. I am aware that I am probably wrong.

[JSngry]

The Price albums are kinda "samey". If you get into the vibe, you'll stay in it. But if not...

For me, Price's voice and Buddy Emmons steel are the whole story, start to finish, and a vivid story it is. 

[HutchFan]

3 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Those Willie Nelson records are the ones I don't really like. I just don't like his voice. It is a personal thing. I am aware that I am probably wrong.

  There is no "wrong" when it comes to this sort of thing.  IMO  

It's fine if he doesn't ring your bell.

 

[JSngry]

Willie and Bob Dylan are the same "type" of singer, imo. "Melodies" are only as useful as the lyrics they carry.

It often works, and when it does, it's inimitable. 

[Rabshakeh]

14 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Willie and Bob Dylan are the same "type" of singer, imo. 

Really?! What do you mean?

[JSngry]

That "melody" per se is not their primary concern 

[Rabshakeh]

I don't hear that for Nelson at all. He seems to my ears to work very hard to sell the melody.