What makes a jazz singer?

[Teasing the Korean]

50 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Formal borders are created by map makers and governments.

On the other hand, our ability to categorize and recognize patterns played a significant role in human evolution.  I agree that there are limits to any system of categorization, but as human beings, we need some general guideposts just so we can communicate with each other.

And while I agree that musical genre categorizations can be limiting, when I go into a record store that files everything A to Z with no distinctions, I immediately walk out the door.  I don't have time for that kind of nonsense.

[jazzbo]

A lot hinges on "what is jazz?" That's a question I keep answering, differently at times.

[Rabshakeh]

There are also very varied approaches. Jazz vocals are sometimes regarded as an acquired taste, but I am pretty sure I could play that Nancy Wilson / Cannonball record to anyone and they'd bond with it immediately, perhaps perceiving it to be a soul record (which it is too). I'm less confident I could win someone over with a Betty Carter or June Christy record.

[HutchFan]

2 minutes ago, jazzbo said:

A lot hinges on "what is jazz?" That's a question I keep answering, differently at times.

I agree 100%.

My understanding of what jazz is has evolved significantly over the years, generally expanding with time.  Or maybe I'm just less concerned with the signposts of genre. ... At a minimum, I hope my capacity for hearing "wider" is growing. 

[Rabshakeh]

12 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And while I agree that musical genre categorizations can be limiting, when I go into a record store that files everything A to Z with no distinctions, I immediately walk out the door.  I don't have time for that kind of nonsense.

Interesting. I agree, but I do like shops that have a single "Jazz, Soul and Funk" section. That feels quite natural.

[HutchFan]

1 minute ago, Rabshakeh said:

There are also very varied approaches. Jazz vocals are sometimes regarded as an acquired taste, but I am pretty sure I could play that Nancy Wilson / Cannonball record to anyone and they'd bond with it immediately, perhaps perceiving it to be a soul record (which it is too). I'm less confident I could win someone over with a Betty Carter or June Christy record.

I think what you're saying is also true of non-vocal jazz. People who are new to jazz will generally have an easier time "hearing" Cannonball than they would Charlie Parker, don't you think?

[JSngry]

3 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Interesting. I agree, but I do like shops that have a single "Jazz, Soul and Funk" section. That feels quite natural.

 

For you.

The are many who would feel soiled by having to climb over James Brown to get to Ray Brown. 

Or other people who would feel it bothersome to deal with Frank Sinatra to get to Sly Stone.

[Rabshakeh]

5 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

For me, a combination of the tunes, the instrumental setting, and the singer's phrasing.

 

3 hours ago, mikeweil said:

.... plus the capability to improvise, ranging from melodic variations of the given material to scatting in a horn-like fashion.

This might be a key distinction. If it is phrasing, then Frank Sinatra should certainly be a jazz singer through most of his career. If it is improvisation, then maybe no. But query where that leaves someone like Joe Turner. I think if you take it too far, then only the Sarah Vaughans, Betty Carters and Carmen McRaes would be jazz singers.

Neither improvisation nor phrasing is going to squeak Rod Stewart through the door though, sadly. 

4 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

I think what you're saying is also true of non-vocal jazz. People who are new to jazz will generally have an easier time "hearing" Cannonball than they would Charlie Parker, don't you think?

Yes. That's a fair point. Despite how core he is to the genre, Charlie Parker is quite esoteric! 

[JSngry]

19 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

And while I agree that musical genre categorizations can be limiting, when I go into a record store that files everything A to Z with no distinctions, I immediately walk out the door.  I don't have time for that kind of nonsense.

So what do you have time for when you go into a record store?

I'm kinda like, hey, let me look through these $1.00 records that you got under the shelves that are just thrown in there any whichyway. And if I ain't got time for that, then why even go in to begin with? If I know what I'm looking for, that's an online shopping session.

Besides, if you have not mastered the Two-Handed KwikFlip, you have no business shopping in a record store, period.

[HutchFan]

Agree re: Rod Stewart singing the GAS.

But him with Jeff Beck -- or a solo album like Gasoline Alley.  That's terrific stuff, imo.

Different settings, different results. 

 

[Rabshakeh]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

For you.

The are many who would feel soiled by having to climb over James Brown to get to Ray Brown. 

Or other people who would feel it bothersome to deal with Frank Sinatra to get to Sly Stone.

Bonus points if it includes Latin stuff. 

[Teasing the Korean]

3 minutes ago, JSngry said:

So what do you have time for when you go into a record store?

I'm kinda like, hey, let me look through these $1.00 records that you got under the shelves that are just thrown in there any whichyway. And if I ain't got time for that, then why even go in to begin with? If I know what I'm looking for, that's an online shopping session.

Besides, if you have not mastered the Two-Handed KwikFlip, you have no business shopping in a record store, period.

I can deal with a random mix in the dollar bin, but for the regular stock, no.  The overall A-Z approach works for me if I go in knowing what I'm looking for.  But I am more interested in browsing. On the rare occasion that I waddle into a record store, I generally don't have much time, and I want to quickly go through the jazz albums, the soundtracks, and some other genres.  I don't have time to browse through the store's entire stock.  

[Rabshakeh]

8 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Agree re: Rod Stewart singing the GAS.

But him with Jeff Beck -- or a solo album like Gasoline Alley.  That's terrific stuff, imo.

Different settings, different results. 

No hate for Mr. Stewart here. Love the Faces and love the solo stuff, at least where he's singing blues. I have an ongoing joke with my wife about how much she loves Rod Stewart.

But those Great American Songbook records are truly truly hideous. It's amazing that a singer with such a feel for soul and blues can fail so badly at jazz. So badly. It does show that there is a gap.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Rabshakeh

[HutchFan]

1 minute ago, Rabshakeh said:

No hate for Mr. Stewart here. Love the faces and love the solo stuff where he's singing blues. But those Great American Songbook records are truly hideous. It's amazing that a singer with such a feel for soul and blues can fail so badly at jazz. So badly. It does show that there is a gap.

LOL 😆

Yep.

[JSngry]

4 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Bonus points if it includes Latin stuff. 

and even more bonus points if they include hillbilly and cajun music!

I've heard Stewart's records of standards, and he sings them better than Linda Ronstadt did. But Ronstadt had exponentially better arrangements, He sings them like the pop songs they are. She sang them like the museum pieces that they didn't have to be.

He's fucking Rod Stewart. There has never been any real depth there, just projection of personality and a voice that met the demands of that quite well. So....what the hell would you expect? Better arrangements would have been nice, but even that wouldn't have changed anything.

"What makes a jazz singer?" What a silly question!!!!

They are BORN, not MADE!!!!!!!

[Rabshakeh]

5 minutes ago, JSngry said:

and even more bonus points if they include hillbilly and cajun music!

You're losing me there. I like a separate folk and blues section. 

[Teasing the Korean]

Rod Stewart is into model railroading.  That is the extent of TTK's interest in Rod Stewart.

That places Rod in a category with Frank Sinatra, Neil Young, Mandy Patinkin, Fred Steiner, Nathan Van Cleave, and Chuck Nessa.

Edited March 11, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[HutchFan]

17 minutes ago, JSngry said:

They are BORN, not MADE!!!!!!!

Really? You're willing to put all your chips on the "Nature" side of the "Nature vs. Nurture" argument?

I was just wondering if Rod Stewart's jazz singing would be less "hideous" if he'd grown up in the US instead of the UK. Or if his parents had been jazz lovers.

I think the geniuses are born.

But he ain't one of those.  Most jazz musicians (singers or otherwise) aren't. 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by HutchFan

[Rabshakeh]

18 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I've heard Stewart's records of standards, and he sings them better than Linda Ronstadt did. But Ronstadt had exponentially better arrangements, He sings them like the pop songs they are. She sang them like the museum pieces that they didn't have to be.

Ronstadt had Nelson Riddle I think? That album is okay as a result.  He was clearly excited to be involved. Not sure the record is okay enough that I would want to listen to it again, though, but I didn't hate it.

Strange that the Stewart albums seemingly made no effort whatsoever. Those arrangements are nothing. You'd think that after the first album became such a mega hit they'd have tried bothering with the others. But no.

[JSngry]

12 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Really? You're willing to put all your chips on the "Nature" side of the "Nature vs. Nurture" argument?

I am, with the stipulation that although it might be in you from the beginning, it is not always readily apparent and in fact may often take a lot of openness to experience to get to, much less get out.

But yeah, if it ain't in you, nothing can put it there.

[Larry Kart]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

On the other hand, our ability to categorize and recognize patterns played a significant role in human evolution.  I agree that there are limits to any system of categorization, but as human beings, we need some general guideposts just so we can communicate with each other.

And while I agree that musical genre categorizations can be limiting, when I go into a record store that files everything A to Z with no distinctions, I immediately walk out the door.  I don't have time for that kind of nonsense.

A good example of what's involved in being a jazz singer, because she's almost singing it "straight" but definitely is not: Trumpeter is Joe Wilder.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

19 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

Ronstadt had Nelson Riddle I think? That album is okay as a result.  He was clearly excited to be involved. Not sure the record is okay enough that I would want to listen to it again, though, but I didn't hate it.

Linda Ronstadt's voice does not work with that kind of material.  Her voice is too big and brassy.  Those kinds of tunes work best with an understated delivery, IMO.

[JSngry]

25 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I like a separate folk and blues section. 

Hillbilly is neither.

Hillbilly is not really "Country" either, at least not in modern terms, endless lip service to the contrary.

Where would this record go, why, and why not?

This "need" (which I don't believe it really is) for categories closes doors instead of opening. Fucking constrictions...

 

[Teasing the Korean]

6 minutes ago, JSngry said:

This "need" (which I don't believe it really is) for categories closes doors instead of opening. Fucking constrictions...

I need categories for the way I consume music.  If I am putting together on short notice a set of outer space orchestral music, or Twilight Zone jazz, spy music, Moog music, or Eastern-tinged grooves by aging jazz and easy listening artists, I need them grouped together, otherwise I would never find everything.

[JSngry]

26 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I need categories for the way I consume music.  If I am putting together on short notice a set of outer space orchestral music, or Twilight Zone jazz, spy music, Moog music, or Eastern-tinged grooves by aging jazz and easy listening artists, I need them grouped together, otherwise I would never find everything.

I never put together things like that (except for an annual BFT here), it's fine for those who do it, but me, I'm at best a willing consumer of such things.

Otherwise, I only "need" to know what my options are so at any given moment, I can proceed accordingly. Finding it is easy enough once it's home. But finding it out in the wild...i like to be surprised by what I never realized I never knew.

I also like having people over and to begin to play music that springs from the conversations being had. And as with any good conversations, unplanned things can and should happen!

So my rule is a seemingly simple but ultimately definitive solution - PUT IT WHERE YOU CAN FIND IT!!!!!!

1 hour ago, Rabshakeh said:

Ronstadt had Nelson Riddle I think? That album is okay as a result.  He was clearly excited to be involved.

According to his biography, he was anything but excited about the project.

46 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

Her voice is too big and brassy.  Those kinds of tunes work best with an understated delivery, IMO.

Unless you're Billy Eckstine or Tony Bennett or Frank Sinatra or....

Ronstandt's flaw was her phrasing, not her voice. She was not a singer who had experiencing singing that type of language (literally), and it showed.