What makes a jazz singer?

[Rabshakeh]

I am interested in forum members' views on this question.

What brings Sarah Vaughan, Jimmy Rushing, Karin Krog, Nancy Wilson and Blossom Dearie together? There's a wide range of vocal styles there, from what would conventionally be seen as jazz vocals, to blues shouter to hipster singer songwriter to pure soul.

Why are Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone and Frank Sinatra sometimes in this category and sometimes not, even when singing standards?

Not interested in drawing sharp genre lines here, and more in your gut level responses to these artists and their music, and the question of what a jazz vocalist *is*.

For the present, it is probably sensible to leave the avant jazz vocalists out of this.

[Teasing the Korean]

For me, a combimation of the tunes, the instrumental setting, and the singer's phrasing.

[JSngry]

22 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

 

Not interested in drawing sharp genre lines here... 

...For the present, it is probably sensible to leave the avant jazz vocalists out of this.

Pick one. 

[Larry Kart]

31 minutes ago, Rabshakeh said:

I am interested in forum members' views on this question.

What brings Sarah Vaughan, Jimmy Rushing, Karin Krog, Nancy Wilson and Blossom Dearie together? There's a wide range of vocal styles there, from what would conventionally be seen as jazz vocals, to blues shouter to hipster singer songwriter to pure soul.

Why are Louis Armstrong, Nat King Cole, Nina Simone and Frank Sinatra sometimes in this category and sometimes not, even when singing standards?

Not interested in drawing sharp genre lines here, and more in your gut level responses to these artists and their music, and the question of what a jazz vocalist *is*.

For the present, it is probably sensible to leave the avant jazz vocalists out of this.

I vaguely recall writing a long piece about this, but I don't remember what I said.

 

[Rabshakeh]

10 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Pick one. 

Otherwise it will just become the Maggie Nichols thread.

[JSngry]

In order to define "jazz singer", wouldn't you first have to define "jazz"?

And who is Maggie , Nichols? A gymnast? 

[jazzbo]

I know it when I hear it.

Most of my favorites are also instrumentalists. . . it's not a requirement, it just tends to turn out that way.

[Teasing the Korean]

You may be interested in this thread where we get into this discussion:

 

[Teasing the Korean]

So here is a great example of what a jazz singer is not:

Place Andy Williams in front of the Count Basie orchestra, give him a decent tune to sing with a nice arrangement.

And even in this setting, Andy does not even come close to jazz.

His phrasing is very much on the beat.  He cannot swing to save his life.

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by Teasing the Korean

[JSngry]

Lockjaw in the section there. 

[mikeweil]

2 hours ago, Teasing the Korean said:

For me, a combimation of the tunes, the instrumental setting, and the singer's phrasing.

.... plus the capability to improvise, ranging from melodic variations of the given material to scatting in a horn-like fashion.

Edited March 11, 2023 by mikeweil

[JSngry]

Singing first, style second.

 

[mikeweil]

1 hour ago, Teasing the Korean said:

So here is a great example of what a jazz singer is not:

Place Andy Williams in front of the Count Basie orchestra, give him a decent tune to sing with a nice arrangement.

And even in this setting, Andy does not even come close to jazz.

His phrasing is very much on the beat.  He cannot swing to save his life.

 

I think the problem lies in the categories and how we define them. With Basie, it's jazz. With a different rhythm section, probably not. I could care less about these categories. It's a nice track, that's good enough for me. I bet there are jazz instrumentalists that do noz "swing" in your ears, but are taken as jazz musicians.  Coltrane didn't swing, in a strict sense, in his later years. 

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

Singing first, style second.

 

👍

[Teasing the Korean]

9 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

.... plus the capability to improvise, ranging from melodic variations of the given material to scatting in a horn-like fashion.

I believe that phrasing would encompass "ability to improvise," certainly with subtle melodic variations.  But ability to scat is not a criterion for me, and it is in fact quite the opposite. 

5 minutes ago, mikeweil said:

With Basie, it's jazz.

Andy Williams on his best day is never a jazz singer, even if he is with Basie.  So that clip I posted above does not meet my criteria for jazz.

[mikeweil]

"What is this thing called jazz, this funny thing called jazz" 😉

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, mikeweil said:

"What is this thing called jazz, this funny thing called jazz" 😉

As sung by Frank Sinatra, a jazz singer if there ever was one, with Nelson Riddle.

[JSngry]

The "Sinatra = jazz singer" thing has been going on for 50-60 years (I think there was a rather long article in the old Saturday Review about it in the late 1950s/early 1960s). I've thought about it for far less than that, but have still come to the conclusion that Sinatra was not a "jazz singer". He was simply a superb singer who only sometimes sang "jazz". and overall, I value his ballad singing more than I do his swing singing. But I certainly enjoy them both, immensely. Sometimes.

Jeanne Lee - that's a "jazz singer". Joe Carrol. Betty Carter. Johnny Hartman. People who satrat and end inside a "jazz" esthetuc (and no, I won't try to definte what that is LOL)

In the end, for me, again - singing first, style second. Perry Como AND Jeanne Tyson. Why not?

Singers (usually) have lyrics to deal with and the is a fundamental differentiator in so many ways. Instrumentalists (almost always) don't have to deal with vowels and consonants and stuff like that. Phrasing, yes, shading, yes, tone placement, yes, but vowels and consonants? No, not unless somebody going to get extraordinarily "vocal" about there instrument, in which case, go ahead and sing. Because an instrument can be "vocal", but an instrument cannot speak actual words (although Mingus/Dolphy almost could!).

These days, they "teach" you (the instrumentalist) to keep your throat open at all times to keep a solid/steady air flow going, but hell - there is SO much you can do about tone production with your throat, and singers know how to do this. Instrumentalists can, but generally don't.

The voice is really the most flexible and difficult instrument, imo. Ignore any good singer, regardless of "style", at your own peril!

 

[Teasing the Korean]

1 minute ago, JSngry said:

The "Sinatra = jazz singer" thing has been going on for 50-60 years (I think there was a rather long article in the old Saturday Review about it in the late 1950s/early 1960s). 

It is also addressed in Ralph Gleason's liner notes to the No One Cares album, and I believe that Gleason comes down on the side of Sinatra being a jazz singer.  Sinatra called himself a saloon singer.

I don't consider Gordon Jenkins to be even remotely jazz, but Sinatra with Gordon Jenkins for me is closer to jazz than Andy Williams with Count Basie.

[HutchFan]

11 minutes ago, Teasing the Korean said:

I don't consider Gordon Jenkins to be even remotely jazz, but Sinatra with Gordon Jenkins for me is closer to jazz than Andy Williams with Count Basie.

Of course. Just like Sinatra with Basie is closer to "Jazz" (or fully is Jazz) compared to Sinatra with Jenkins. It's all a continuum. 

From where I'm sitting, the question "Jazz singer, yes or no?" mostly comes down to rhythm -- both the singer's internal, innate sense of rhythm and the singer's accompaniment. 

For example, I've been listening to some singers lately who sorta straddle the line between jazz and "cabaret." And I think the distinction almost entirely comes down to rhythm. But there's huge overlap between the two -- since it's a continuum. 

 

16 minutes ago, JSngry said:

The voice is really the most flexible and difficult instrument, imo. Ignore any good singer, regardless of "style", at your own peril!

Makes sense to me. 

 

Edited March 11, 2023 by HutchFan

[JSngry]

Badass needs no label.

 

[Teasing the Korean]

9 minutes ago, HutchFan said:

Of course. Just like Sinatra with Basie is closer to "Jazz" (or fully is Jazz) compared to Sinatra with Jenkins. It's all a continuum. 

Yes, agreed, it is a continuum.

[JSngry]

It's 3D Venn Diagram.

 

[HutchFan]

2 minutes ago, JSngry said:

It's 3D Venn Diagram

Yeah. Better description. 

 

[soulpope]

Firstly it`s about the voice ..... and whether you`re touched by it or not .... then the material comes into play ....

[JSngry]

Formal borders are created by map makers and governments.

Geography and transportation make borders something that we relate to at will, not things that control us. An enforced border exists strictly to keep people in their place unless permission is granted to move across them.

Keeping people in their place is not a function of music. Not at all.

 

Gene Ammons sang ballads.